View Poll Results: What kind of main canon DCU do you hate less?

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  • Legacy-Only for everyone

    29 49.15%
  • Constant Company-wide Hard Reboot

    12 20.34%
  • Good grief, let's keep half-assing it

    18 30.51%
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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Agreed mostly. I don't hate legacy altogether, I just hate it when its overdone. Right now its being overdone, and the A scenario would be going WAY too far. There's precedent for concepts like Flash and GL, I get that. But for example if you replace Kal-El and Diana, what do you get? Not-Superman and Not-Wonder Woman. And the only legacy within the Batman mythos should be the Robin and Batgirl identities.
    Yes. Much like all of DC's concepts, it needs to be used sparingly. I can't imagine a scenario where EVERY superhero identity, from major to minor, getting passed down to be anything other than kind of boring. What's the point of having flashy, distinctive costumes and codenames if you then have to clarify which version of each it is? It's a shame that legacy seems to be the best shot at new characters catching on, because encouraging new stuff to be created would be preferable to me.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes. Much like all of DC's concepts, it needs to be used sparingly. I can't imagine a scenario where EVERY superhero identity, from major to minor, getting passed down to be anything other than kind of boring. What's the point of having flashy, distinctive costumes and codenames if you then have to clarify which version of each it is? It's a shame that legacy seems to be the best shot at new characters catching on, because encouraging new stuff to be created would be preferable to me.
    To be fair sometimes even legacy characters dont stay. Not unless they are related to Batman.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Poll forthcoming.

    It's pretty clear that, from a continuity standpoint, half-assing it does not work for the DCU as a whole. Yet, ever since COIE concluded in 1986, that's exactly what DC keeps doing with retcons that dramatically affect some franchises and leave others completely unchanged.

    So, presuming there will come yet another Crisis event that will muck things up again down the road ... what kind of continuity for the Main Canon DCU would you prefer out of these 2 choices?

    A. Legacy - Only continuity: Everything happens in real - time, everyone ages in real time, death is permanent, EVERYONE eventually gets permanently replaced by successors including Clark, Bruce, and Diana, and then their own successors get replaced themselves.

    B. Constant Company-wide Hard Reboot continuity: every 10-15 years IRL, everyone starts over from Day One, no matter how well they were selling right before the previous Crisis. Still real - time progression, but no one gets replaced in - continuity. The Single Identity Franchises remain the same anchor character (Clark, Bruce, Diana, Arthur, etc) in each reboot, but the Multiple Identity Franchises can have a new anchor character (Flash, Green Lantern, Hawks, Blue Beetle, etc) in each reboot.

    That's it. Those are the two extreme choices. No more half -assing.

    Either this is the very last reboot and everyone is getting replaced sooner or later

    or

    this is the first in a perpetual planned cycle of company -wide decade-long reboots.

    Pick your poison.
    I think there's a middle option that isn't half-assing anything and it's exactly what DC did from 1939 until 1985. Every story was true, legacies were intact, but it didn't mean that we couldn't continually read about our favorite characters.

    There's a false dichotomy in "real time" vs. "constant reboots." Reboots were never ever necessary until CoIE made them necessary. If they'd never done that there would never have been need for reboots or continuity fixes. That's why I always refer to CoIE as DC's original sin. Once they pulled at that thread there was no option but to continually adjust and re-adjust.

    DC could get back to that with a bold move: All stories you've read are true and they all happened and the multiverse is intact again. In other words, we go back to pre-Crisis rules.

    I voted for Legacy over Constant Reboots because it's closest to what I want. But I don't see the logic behind insisting that characters age out in real time. Gigantic characters of any mythology can remain around the same age (a vague 28-35-ish except on Earth Two which is the reason for having an Earth Two) as long as editorial doesn't step in to muck things up. How do I know that? Because it's exactly how DC worked until they tried to 'simplify' continuity and, in doing so, wound up complicating it wildly and forever, the opposite of the intended effect.

    Marv Wolfman was always concerned about the longterm effects of CoIE, though he wrote it, and back then he had a back door planned to get out of what they'd done with CoIE if DC wanted to use it. I don't know if Wolfman's way of reversing CoIE would work anymore (probably not) but there are a lot of ways to get back to those old rules.

    I have some optimism that that is what D-Clock and the longform Rebirth story are trying to do.

  4. #34

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    I vote for option A as it allows the universe to move forward while having a constant source of jumping on points for any fan.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    To be fair sometimes even legacy characters dont stay. Not unless they are related to Batman.
    Yes, and then we get the tedious fandom wars over which version was better, because the fans of the legacy character are understandably pissed that their preferred version got put on the back burner while the fans of the returning character are understandably overjoyed that their favorite is back and didn't appreciate them going away in the first place.

    Retiring characters/writing them out/killing them off without replacing them with someone else wearing their costume would mean that IF they ever came back, we wouldn't have to get rid of their replacement in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    I think there's a middle option that isn't half-assing anything and it's exactly what DC did from 1939 until 1985. Every story was true, legacies were intact, but it didn't mean that we couldn't continually read about our favorite characters.

    There's a false dichotomy in "real time" vs. "constant reboots." Reboots were never ever necessary until CoIE made them necessary. If they'd never done that there would never have been need for reboots or continuity fixes. That's why I always refer to CoIE as DC's original sin. Once they pulled at that thread there was no option but to continually adjust and re-adjust.

    DC could get back to that with a bold move: All stories you've read are true and they all happened and the multiverse is intact again. In other words, we go back to pre-Crisis rules.

    I voted for Legacy over Constant Reboots because it's closest to what I want. But I don't see the logic behind insisting that characters age out in real time. Gigantic characters of any mythology can remain around the same age (a vague 28-35-ish except on Earth Two which is the reason for having an Earth Two) as long as editorial doesn't step in to muck things up. How do I know that? Because it's exactly how DC worked until they tried to 'simplify' continuity and, in doing so, wound up complicating it wildly and forever, the opposite of the intended effect.

    Marv Wolfman was always concerned about the longterm effects of CoIE, though he wrote it, and back then he had a back door planned to get out of what they'd done with CoIE if DC wanted to use it. I don't know if Wolfman's way of reversing CoIE would work anymore (probably not) but there are a lot of ways to get back to those old rules.

    I have some optimism that that is what D-Clock and the longform Rebirth story are trying to do.
    Preach.

    I do wonder if Doomsday Clock and whatever this Crisis we may or may not end up getting will lead to a restoration of the pre-Crisis multiverse. The Superman that is married to Lois and fathered John is pre-Crisis Earth-1 Superman who has his history and also experienced some variation of the major post-Crisis stories (death and marriage, characters like Steel and Kon being present) before ending up where he's at now. Wonder Woman wouldn't really fit, but she never does unfortunately, and we have the broad strokes needed. Restoring Donna to some semblance of her old origin would be the best we could hope for as far as that goes. It could be why they are holding of on Shazam until Doomsday clock finishes, maybe it will be on Earth-5?

    The things that make me doubt that idea is that they seem dead set on keeping the JSA on the main Earth, so restoring the full roster of legacies and as much of the history as possible on Earth-2 seems doubtful. As well as Cyborg being a JL founder and not with the NTT, though they seem to change their stance on that every other week.

  6. #36
    Cowboy Superhero Colt Cape's Avatar
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    I'd have to go with option a.
    Stories need to progress.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Reboot, but the window needs to be expanded to 25-30 years. Ten or even fifteen years isn't as long a time as it seems: Jason Todd has been back as the Red Hood for fifteen years. Barry Allen has been back for a decade. Damian Wayne has been Robin for a decade. All of it feels like just yesterday.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Pretty much this. Either that or keep the same continuity and just play it more fast and loose. Part of the appeal is the history of these characters. When you watch a movie that gets you jazzed about them, you're not thinking "I need to get in on ground zero," it's "I want to read about what this character's been up to." At least it was for me. Deep diving into DC when I was still in school was an experience I'll never fully be able to express adequately, but there's lots of fun to be had. I've been doing everything I can to corrupt my girlfriend into being a DC fan too, and she absolutely loves some of the deeper cuts. I got her to share my love of Matter Eater Lad and Bouncing Boy for how silly they are.

    Reboots are great jumping on points on the cover, but ultimately it somewhat invalidates the history of those characters because it doesn't "count" anymore. Hypertime, or a looser continuity you can revitalize every decade or so with a minor shake-up, is a better solution as I see it.

    But real time is a terrible idea, frankly, for a medium that moves this slowly and with such recognizable characters.

  8. #38
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Although it will NEVER happen. I really love the idea of heroes aging and retiring or dying.
    As mentioned earlier, time doesn't move the same in comics.
    Batman etc will still be around for another 30 years. Then give the kids a shot.
    Dick as Batman
    Connor as Green Arrow
    Kyle as Green Lantern
    Wally as the Flash

    So on and so forth. Even now, if we went that route, we have Batman stories for the next 60 years that don't have Bruce Wayne in the costume!
    Dick, Tim, Damian can all take the mantle

    It's a concept I think Erik Larsen has done a great job with on Savage Dragon with Malcolm.
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  9. #39
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    Honestly all I care about are stories that are engaging and speak to me. I've never been much of a continuity nazi, to be honest. I don't need things referenced from 1970-something in order for me to enjoy things. When New 52 came around I didn't whine. I separated the good stuff from the bad. Simple. There should be a choice for people who are indifferent.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    Although it will NEVER happen. I really love the idea of heroes aging and retiring or dying.
    As mentioned earlier, time doesn't move the same in comics.
    Batman etc will still be around for another 30 years. Then give the kids a shot.
    Dick as Batman
    Connor as Green Arrow
    Kyle as Green Lantern
    Wally as the Flash

    So on and so forth. Even now, if we went that route, we have Batman stories for the next 60 years that don't have Bruce Wayne in the costume!
    Dick, Tim, Damian can all take the mantle

    It's a concept I think Erik Larsen has done a great job with on Savage Dragon with Malcolm.
    The aging and being replaced by legacies is what JSA/Earth Two is for. It's why they belong on their own earth; it's an earth where those things happen to the major characters. Batman married Catwoman and had Huntress. Richard Grayson Robin joined the JSA. All the major heroes aged and some died. And they were rich with legacies pre and post Crisis.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Black View Post
    Honestly all I care about are stories that are engaging and speak to me. I've never been much of a continuity nazi, to be honest. I don't need things referenced from 1970-something in order for me to enjoy things. When New 52 came around I didn't whine. I separated the good stuff from the bad. Simple. There should be a choice for people who are indifferent.
    This is pretty much my position too. But I did prefer the richness of the untamed DCU that existed before CoIE. Without that course correction there was never a need for any other. But yes, of course, great stories above all else.

  12. #42
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    If had to choose only between total reboots every 10-15 years and total replacement by legacies every 10-15 years, I'd go with total replacement.

    But I prefer the sliding timescale solution Marvel uses (and that DC itself used for decades before Crisis on Infinite Earths), in which time does go by, but really, really slowly, so that it might take 40 years for Dick Grayson to graduate to long pants, but it would happen, and there would be a new Robin. I watched Dick, Donna, Wally, Roy, Garth, Garfield, Kory, etc. grow up, and don't want to see them regress constantly to being kids again (Garfield seems to be the one mostly likely to get rebooted into being a spastic kid over and over, in recent decades, and it's annoying to see him be less mature now than he was in the eighties, although that same could be said for Hal Jordan or Barry Allen, both of whom used to be experienced and respected heroes, and then got brought back as immature jokes).

  13. #43
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    As I have pointed out recently, except for Carabas , nobody really wants DC to go the full-legacy route. They only want the legacy characters they grew up with or first read and stop there. Besides, the Trinity is a permanent impediment to it, anyway.

    Constant company-wide hard reboot? Since we haven't had this constantly, I'll pass on that, too.

    I guess I'll go with c), not that it's the best option, but only that better options are not there.
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  14. #44
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    Although it will NEVER happen. I really love the idea of heroes aging and retiring or dying.
    As mentioned earlier, time doesn't move the same in comics.
    Batman etc will still be around for another 30 years. Then give the kids a shot.
    Dick as Batman
    Connor as Green Arrow
    Kyle as Green Lantern
    Wally as the Flash

    So on and so forth. Even now, if we went that route, we have Batman stories for the next 60 years that don't have Bruce Wayne in the costume!
    Dick, Tim, Damian can all take the mantle

    It's a concept I think Erik Larsen has done a great job with on Savage Dragon with Malcolm.
    This is how things should go and never will, as you said.

  15. #45
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    I voted "Good grief, let's keep half-assing it" because DC isn't picking from these terrible poisons exactly.

    DC is doing it mostly correct now. The core beloved characters, classic, and hopefully much less reboot-ish type stuff in the future.
    Thank you AMericA for votinG for chAnge.

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