X-Men Red #4 Spoilers - We Have a King, a Goddess, and a Gabby

[butterflykyss]

Sorry to interrupt the usual Storm Fans vs. the World Power Creep Showdown, but Laura got a nice little feat here. Pretty damn impressive her eyes are sharp enough she could SEE that nanite once it was removed from 'Ro's head.

I didnt recall that but if no one else could recognize it is impressive(edit just read it and she saw it by herself). her approach with taking storm out was a bit heavy handed to me, I didnt really like that.

[ariwl1]

Sorry to interrupt the usual Storm Fans vs. the World Power Creep Showdown, but Laura got a nice little feat here. Pretty damn impressive her eyes are sharp enough she could SEE that nanite once it was removed from 'Ro's head.

I'm hoping Taylor continues to find ways to use the characters' powers creatively. Considering they have to keep a low-profile that could provide some interesting opportunities.

[rutog98]

That's not what it means. It simply means that your idea of what Claremont intended for her vulnerabilities to be with regards to her own power is irrelevant. It's almost like you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Claremont has only ever written her in team setting. Yeah, she got some major focus, but she still had to share panel time with her teammates. Her SOLO is a different story. Characters tend to get more focus on their powers and their personalities when the series is focused solely on them. It only makes sense that characters may do things in their solo stories that they might not have the chance to do while in a team setting. These things happen. Why wouldn't characters learn and grow? Why is it important to YOU that Storm still show the same weaknesses that she debuted with? Do YOU seriously not question the judgement of a person that keeps exhibiting the same behavior in hopes of achieving a different outcome? Do you, really? No?

So why then would I tell my friend Rutog to stop his preferred system of truth delivery? You are essentially arguing that "Storm's low showings matter too". Ok, when Rutog does that to Jean to further emphasize why she was in desperate need of an upgrade to even be allowed to sit at the table with pre-Hadari Yao Storm, her uber fans get upset and start posting her better showings. It's the nature of our collective fandom. You keep talking like all Storm's lowest showings define her. They do in a way. Everyone's lowest showings matter. It should be used as a point for reference from which the character learns a valuable lesson. The lesson here is Storm has been getting more and more feats of fine tuned control since Claremont left. Of course we're not gonna reference something that devalues the progress she's made. To suggest otherwise sounds ridiculous to me.

Bottom line YOU replied to me with the implication that I wanted to only push her greatest showings to the front. That wasn't the case. And I'm still not sure how you got there.

Yes, this is exactly what needs to happen.

Yaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssssss!!! This is the TEA!!! I'M ABSOLUTELY HERE FOR THIS! I don't think it's possible for me to love you anymore than I already do. In the name of Hadari Yao, cleanse this place!

It should be noted that Jean doesn't have the feats to compete with pre-"goddess" Storm. What some people try and do is use feats she's accomplished with the Phoenix Force when they get backed into a corner when her character is compared with Storm's numerous high end feats. The same thing happens when Jean is compared to Emma, Xavier, Shadow King, Magneto, Exodus, and a bunch of other characters who are more powerful than Jean Grey. So, it's not like I try and lowball the character. I merely give an accurate gauge of Jean's powers when she isn't being boosted by the Phoenix Force or Cerebro.

[BBeeryan]

can I just say one more time for all the haters who said storm wouldn't be mentioned as a goddess except in bp and they hope it would never be seen in the xbooks.... man it feels good to be right

muah

You give them something to munch on. Everybody was bumping their gums about Coates' portrayal of Storm, the one true Hadari Yao of legend not being referenced in the X-books so it wouldn't matter. How's that egg on the face of Hadari Yao's haters? I hope they make a breakfast panini out of it.

Thanks. ^_^

On rereading the issue i also need to add that i enjoyed how natural it was for Storm to join the team. It's kind of funny because even before it was confirmed closer to the end i kept thinking "No way can Storm walk away from what Jean is telling her is happening." So Kudos Taylor. Storm literally had to join this team and it worked out so well.

There was every reason in the world for Storm to join this team. She was the only logical choice given the landscape Jean found herself in. As soon as the preview for issue #1 dropped I personally made mention of how everything seemed to be tailor made for 'Ro. Lololol I wasn't the only one that noticed it. When a few of her other knowledgeable and perceptive fans saw the preview, they came to the exact same conclusion that I did. Only then we were accused of making everything about Storm. The irony being, the only person in this series that Jean has ties to all by herself is Cassandra Nova. And technically that's not even true because it's recently been brought to my attention that Storm has gone up against Cassie during her time with X-force. So as it appears, every single character in this series has a legitimate tie to Storm, despite the fact that it's lead by Jean Grey. But I don't wanna hijack this thread and make everything about Storm when literally everything IS about Storm... *sips tea*

Just also wanted to give credit to Asrar and the colorist as well. His art has really been growing and i think he's only going to get better. His passion for drawing really comes across. And i love how good he is at expressions and actually making the characters look diverse. When is the last time an X-team wore so many different things in one issue.

I very much agree with this. Shut it down! Shut it DOWN!

Her solo was not consistent with past continuity yet I don't see any Storm fans complaining. The fact is Taylor and Pak are two sides of the same coin. The only difference is as a Storm fan, you are fine with Pak changing things to add more to her powers. That is perfectly fine for you to feel that way. However, for a general fan that understands her history, it is Pak suddenly trying to make her completely immune that to a large extent is outside the norm for her and so that is why we are not too broken up about it.

I think characters should be written in line with the powers they have exhibited consistently for much of their history. To the extent a writer decides to give them a power up that they never had before, it is entirely up to future writers to decide whether they will treat that as a permanent upgrade or simply an ability that was a temporary upgrade to suit a finite story.



I think the disconnect is that such things work both ways. Characters can hone their attributes and characters can lose abilities or be inconsistent because they are afterall human. Humans don't just continue to get better and often times as we age, our abilities decline. Her solo again added something that for decades was never a part of her repertoire consistently. It is up to Marvel and their writers to decide whether what Pak did is now the new norm or whether what Pak did was an aberration or one off thing and all that happened here is Taylor ultimately decided he would stick with the powers that have been consistently shown over several decades.

In a medium where writers come and go, there will always be some writers that take liberties with characters. Sometimes those liberties will be to weaken a character in a way that is outside of the norm and sometimes it will be to strengthen a character in a way that is outside the norm. It only becomes the norm when Marvel and its writers show that feat consistently over time. Storm being immune to her own powers is simply not something that has been shown consistently over time and Storm fans are only treating it as gospel because it went in her favor. If Pak did something that weakened her, you all would be arguing it is not consistent with her previous feats. So there is a bit of a bias here.

I love you, remydat. And it's for no other reason than you have a knack for explaining to me that which I already know and have openly expressed. I'm aware that writers are going to take liberties. I'm aware that not all writers are going to know about every feat she's ever pulled. That is still not going to stop me from pointing something out that doesn't pay tribute to her most recent upgrades. That hasn't stopped me from enjoying the issue. I'm acknowledging that Storm has shown an increase in her fine control. Yes, my bias is in full effect. I've never denied that. It's the nature of the fandom. Your idea that something needs to be shown consistently over time is something I agree with. People were butthurt that she snatched the air out of someone's lungs when she first did it. Ironically that also happened in a mini that was solely focused on Storm. Now that she's been consistently shown to be able to do it on a whim, people are still butthurt, they just keep it to a minimum. Lol overall I agree with your point. Not every writer is going to remember every feat. But it is highly illogical to expect fans of a character to reject feats that have been given to their faves in stories that were specifically designed for said character. That just sounds ridiculous. And it's even weirder that this needs to be explained.

Since Storm can summon rain, is she also immune to drowning? I'm sure her stans believe in that logic.

Lol it's funny because the idea that Storm would drown when her full range of power is at her disposal is also a very illogical point to make. If she was without her full power given to her by right of birth, then and only then, could a logical case be made for Storm as a drowning victim. But luckily we don't have to worry about Storm being without her power. The one good thing to come out of X-men Gold is the fact that Storm's power can no longer be nullified. With that said, the scan below answers your question, no?

:P



Claremont likes Storm a lot.

Thank you for this. We needed you in these times of hard struggle. People are using false talking points and discrediting themselves in the process. LAWDHAMERCY... lololololol

[butterflykyss]

You give them something to munch on. Everybody was bumping their gums about Coates' portrayal of Storm, the one true Hadari Yao of legend not being referenced in the X-books so it wouldn't matter. How's that egg on the face of Hadari Yao's haters? I hope they make a breakfast panini out of it.

There was every reason in the world for Storm to join this team. She was the only logical choice given the landscape Jean found herself in. As soon as the preview for issue #1 dropped I personally made mention of how everything seemed to be tailor made for 'Ro. Lololol I wasn't the only one that noticed it. When a few of her other knowledgeable and perceptive fans saw the preview, they came to the exact same conclusion that I did. Only then we were accused of making everything about Storm. The irony being, the only person in this series that Jean has ties to all by herself is Cassandra Nova. And technically that's not even true because it's recently been brought to my attention that Storm has gone up against Cassie during her time with X-force. So as it appears, every single character in this series has a legitimate tie to Storm, despite the fact that it's lead by Jean Grey. But I don't wanna hijack this thread and make everything about Storm when literally everything IS about Storm... *sips tea*

I very much agree with this. Shut it down! Shut it DOWN!

I love you, remydat. And it's for no other reason than you have a knack for explaining to me that which I already know and have openly expressed. I'm aware that writers are going to take liberties. I'm aware that not all writers are going to know about every feat she's ever pulled. That is still not going to stop me from pointing something out that doesn't pay tribute to her most recent upgrades. That hasn't stopped me from enjoying the issue. I'm acknowledging that Storm has shown an increase in her fine control. Yes, my bias is in full effect. I've never denied that. It's the nature of the fandom. Your idea that something needs to be shown consistently over time is something I agree with. People were butthurt that she snatched the air out of someone's lungs when she first did it. Ironically that also happened in a mini that was solely focused on Storm. Now that she's been consistently shown to be able to do it on a whim, people are still butthurt, they just keep it to a minimum. Lol overall I agree with your point. Not every writer is going to remember every feat. But it is highly illogical to expect fans of a character to reject feats that have been given to their faves in stories that were specifically designed for said character. That just sounds ridiculous. And it's even weirder that this needs to be explained.

Lol it's funny because the idea that Storm would drown when her full range of power is at her disposal is also a very illogical point to make. If she was without her full power given to her by right of birth, then and only then, could a logical case be made for Storm as a drowning victim. But luckily we don't have to worry about Storm being without her power. The one good thing to come out of X-men Gold is the fact that Storm's power can no longer be nullified. With that said, the scan below answers your question, no?

Thank you for this. We needed you in these times of hard struggle. People are using false talking points and discrediting themselves in the process. LAWDHAMERCY... lololololol

I love the way you make it plain and simple. thank you love beautifully said!

[donpricetag]

Have to admit, even with my other concerns about this book... Team visually looks better with Storm being part of it.

[butterflykyss]

Have to admit, even with my other concerns about this book... Team visually looks better with Storm being part of it.

what are those concerns?? and I just love her new look it's gone with the wind fabulous.

[rutog98]

Regarding the over-sized roster of Red, Honey Badger needs to go. Also, I don't think there is a need for Laura with both Gambit and Namor on the team. To be honest, a lineup of Storm-Jean-Nightcrawler-Gambit-Trinary-Namor-Gentle is plenty. It's also a fun group that will have loads of readership appeal if the stories remain interesting and the characters are each treated well. If they want to keep Laura on the team, then Gambit should go to make space for her. Since Gambit is one of my four favorite characters (alongside Ororo, Emma, and Kurt), I say keep him over Laura.

[magenta]

I'm hoping Taylor continues to find ways to use the characters' powers creatively. Considering they have to keep a low-profile that could provide some interesting opportunities.

I liked Nightcrawler teleporting a bunch of people (Jean, Laura, new mutant girl) in a series of bamfs all the way to Atlantis in issue #1. I haven't kept up with his current power level, but I remember when he used to struggle to teleport once with a single passenger.

[BBeeryan]

please set the record straight. for so long storm fans have been informing people of everything storm can do and we were ridiculed and mocked. we told you she was a goddess and we were called fanboys. and even after it was confirmed in BP people still said it didnt matter cause it wasnt in a xbook. but now here we are and everything said has been acknowledged.



her being a goddess is solidified. the point being is that people have to get beyond what they thought of her and how her powers work because coates came in and changed the game; it will never be the same. so as much as people would like to discredit her and call showings pis just remember Claremont was the one who hinted at this years ago.

Boo, I don't get it. It's like every attempt in the book is used to try and prove Storm wrong. Are we really supposed to deny her most recent upgrades? Is that a thing? Where do people do that at? I'm gonna go into Invisible Woman's thread and tell her fans that calling her Invisible girl matters because it's her established continuity despite the work that more recent writers have done for her. She should not be able to use her power to glide on air molecules either. And don't even get me started on blocking a lightning bolt from Thor. Better yet, let me go tell Rachel fans that they should be proud of her Guggy upgrade because that doesn't fly in the face of any of her prior history. Nope, Guggy isn't to blame for writing her power down under the guise of giving her a boost. Is this the argument people are using? Do they really expect someone with common sense to go along with it too? Ch.....

[Havok83]

Boo, I don't get it. It's like every attempt in the book is used to try and prove Storm wrong. Are we really supposed to deny her most recent upgrades? Is that a thing? Where do people do that at? I'm gonna go into Invisible Woman's thread and tell her fans that calling her Invisible girl matters because it's her established continuity despite the work that more recent writers have done for her. She should not be able to use her power to glide on air molecules either. And don't even get me started on blocking a lightning bolt from Thor. Better yet, let me go tell Rachel fans that they should be proud of her Guggy upgrade because that doesn't fly in the face of any of her prior history. Nope, Guggy isn't to blame for writing her power down under the guise of giving her a boost. Is this the argument people are using? Do they really expect someone with common sense to go along with it too? Ch.....

This discussion has gone back and forth so many times but it began bc Storm fans complained about what was done with her here bc lightning shoudlnt hurt her bc she's immune. Lightning didnt touch her and we never saw her affected for immunity to be confirmed or disproven in this issue. There was no PIS (god I hate that term), no retcons, no change to canon. Ultimately no harm, no foul was done to Storm's continuity/mythos so it comes down to 15+ pages of a whole lot of commotion for nothing

[rutog98]

Boo, I don't get it. It's like every attempt in the book is used to try and prove Storm wrong. Are we really supposed to deny her most recent upgrades? Is that a thing? Where do people do that at? I'm gonna go into Invisible Woman's thread and tell her fans that calling her Invisible girl matters because it's her established continuity despite the work that more recent writers have done for her. She should not be able to use her power to glide on air molecules either. And don't even get me started on blocking a lightning bolt from Thor. Better yet, let me go tell Rachel fans that they should be proud of her Guggy upgrade because that doesn't fly in the face of any of her prior history. Nope, Guggy isn't to blame for writing her power down under the guise of giving her a boost. Is this the argument people are using? Do they really expect someone with common sense to go along with it too? Ch.....

This is a great post!

You may have trouble with the Rachel claim, though, lol! She loses against virtually every telepath she faces unless she has the Phoenix Force boosting her. She lost three times against Selene when she had to rely on her own power levels. When she eventually beat Selene, it was only because she had the Phoenix Force hiking up her power levels. Then, she got clobbered by Emma Frost, a generic telepathic dinosaur whose name I can't even remember, Exodus (when she lost to Exodus, she had like 5 other X-Men helping her in that fight, and she was still nothing compared to him), Martha (that brain that exists in a bubble) also clobbered her, etc. So, Guggenheim having her lose to Mesmero is in keeping with her usual showings when she doesn't have the Phoenix Force boosting her. I'm not throwing any shade at Rachel, just being honest about her record.

[butterflykyss]

Boo, I don't get it. It's like every attempt in the book is used to try and prove Storm wrong. Are we really supposed to deny her most recent upgrades? Is that a thing? Where do people do that at? I'm gonna go into Invisible Woman's thread and tell her fans that calling her Invisible girl matters because it's her established continuity despite the work that more recent writers have done for her. She should not be able to use her power to glide on air molecules either. And don't even get me started on blocking a lightning bolt from Thor. Better yet, let me go tell Rachel fans that they should be proud of her Guggy upgrade because that doesn't fly in the face of any of her prior history. Nope, Guggy isn't to blame for writing her power down under the guise of giving her a boost. Is this the argument people are using? Do they really expect someone with common sense to go along with it too? Ch.....

baby dont hurt em with all of this truth!!!! lololol you officially took me out with this post!!!!

[remydat]

1) Okay, on Claremont and the lightning immunity thing, he wrote Storm to be immune to lightning in some stories while in others he simply ignored that aspect of her powers when he deemed it necessary for the scenario. So, it's not like when Pak came along and flat out made her immune there wasn't any precedence for it. He simply chose to make her immune and stuck with it. So, anytime she is hurt by lightning when she is fully attuned to the universe around her and is at full health is PIS.

2) Gambit's mind has always been slippery for telepaths to grab onto under Claremont's pen.

3) Storm has absolute control over her powers: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/GFBzvooKIY_...dXD3WpDI=s1600
So, yeah, her being able to send an electrical current through a body of water while maintaining absolute control over it so that it didn't electrocute her friends who are immursed in the water fits well within her having total control over her abilities. She's just that good, guys, deal with it. That creature that was holding Kitty, when Storm incinerated it, according to physics, Kitty should have been electrocuted as well for not only being in such proximity to where the bolt struck, but the bolt should have also flowed from that being into Kitty. However, the story lets us know that the reason it didn't happen that way was because of Ororo's superlative control over the forces of nature. The same holds true for the underwater feat Storm pulled.

1. Or maybe Claremont just wrote her as human in which case some days she has control and other days not so much. It is just as likely that the PIS was her being immune because Claremont or Pak wanted her to be for that specific story.

2. Whether it is always slippery doesn't mean that he can't get possessed as we saw with the Shadow King in AXM. I found the way he was possessed stupid but I understand that said immunity is not 100% guaranteed.

3. Whether she has absolute control over her powers doesn't mean she exhibits that control 100% of the time. This is the point you guys don't seem to get. No one in the history of the world has ever been 100% effective in anything. Whether you think it is PIS is irrelevant. PIS is a meta argument. It has no bearing on what happened in the story. Gambit is suppose to be an expert thief. I consider it PIS stupidity when a writer has him bungle a simple job as we have seen a few times in the past few months. However, in story, he did in fact bungle the job and in story he did in fact screw up. So I think you guys are confusing your meta comments with the canon. The canon is that Storm has expert control over her powers but she screws up sometimes just like the rest of us. Storm's bleeds red just like anyone else. Her **** stinks just like anyone else. And she makes stupid mistakes or doesn't use her powers consistently just like everyone else. **** happens. You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to consider it good story telling. But it is the canon.

showing total control of her power would different than using it effectively. for instance, she has total control of her lightning but if she used it let's say against magneto ot would be ineffective based upon his abilities. and yes she can have days off. sometimes she has been surprised, or beaten physically do badly her abilities are not effective but that is fine. there are reasons for this. however, writers saying her powers dont work because there is no weather is a different thing entirely.

do you recall the instances where she was shown being hurt by lightning? it often time was due to her being surprised and expecting the unexpected surge in power from what she initially created. but now that doesnt matter she is immune.

and I'm not sure what your point you are making. I never said she was perfect but I am correcting incorrect statements about how her powers work.

There are obviously times when writers get things wrong. I simply don't think this immunity thing is one of them. She was possessed/controlled and one of the things she was suppose to do was hurt mutants including herself. So the fact she was damaged by her own lightning can be reasonably explained by any number of things including her trying to hurt herself and the other mutants. Likewise, this whole indomitable will **** is just silly. She was asleep when Nova got to her and indomitable will isn't some robotic thing that is 100% effective. The fact Nova was able to control her with the aid of sentinite is nothing to freak out about.

The point I am making is her powers are unlikely work 100% of the time as you we expect because she is human. Nothing in how her powers worked where was incorrect. We know that sometimes she can resist her own lightning and we know that sometimes she cannot. This was one of the latter times and the fact she was compromised by Nova is more than enough reason for it to be one of those latter times. Doesn't mean you have to like it but there was nothing incorrect in what Taylor did. There is a logical reason for her not to be immune in this particular instance.

[rutog98]

1. Or maybe Claremont just wrote her as human in which case some days she has control and other days not so much. It is just as likely that the PIS was her being immune because Claremont or Pak wanted her to be for that specific story.

2. Whether it is always slippery doesn't mean that he can't get possessed as we saw with the Shadow King in AXM. I found the way he was possessed stupid but I understand that said immunity is not 100% guaranteed.

3. Whether she has absolute control over her powers doesn't mean she exhibits that control 100% of the time. This is the point you guys don't seem to get. No one in the history of the world has ever been 100% effective in anything. Whether you think it is PIS is irrelevant. PIS is a meta argument. It has no bearing on what happened in the story. Gambit is suppose to be an expert thief. I consider it PIS stupidity when a writer has him bungle a simple job as we have seen a few times in the past few months. However, in story, he did in fact bungle the job and in story he did in fact screw up. So I think you guys are confusing your meta comments with the canon. The canon is that Storm has expert control over her powers but she screws up sometimes just like the rest of us. Storm's bleeds red just like anyone else. Her **** stinks just like anyone else. And she makes stupid mistakes or doesn't use her powers consistently just like everyone else. **** happens. You don't have to like it. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to consider it good story telling. But it is the canon.

1) Storm's immunity has nothing to do with control. It never has, therefore, it has nothing to do with having an off-day. It's an innate aspect of the character that is ever-present and has everything to do with her bond with the universe around her being fully in-tact, and her powers being in full force. For instance, if she went to a brand new world, she would be able to get harmed by the forces of nature there until she became attuned to that planet's lifeforce. Also, if she sustains an injury that affects her mutant power, then she can also be directly harmed by the weather.

2) Gambit is not immune to telepathy, his mind is just hard for them to grab onto. Also, not every writer acknowledges this about the character. However, when written at his best, it should be very difficult to successfully attack his mind. should be very difficult to successfully mind attack.

3) The problem is not that Storm is just happening to have an off day, the issue is some writers will consistently ignore aspects of what she can do just to prop up other characters. For instance, when Storm started out, she had no mental defenses against telepathy. Any and every telepath around could successfully shut her down with a psychic attack. Even Mesmero could do this to her. However, starting at around Uncanny 151-152, Claremont began to build her mental defenses as an aspect of her character development. As he developed her like this, she grew to where no single telepath could hope to overcome her mental defenses (psis like Xavier and Shadow King included could not best Storm). In fact, by the end of his first run, Warskrull, who had the combined psi of Xavier, Psylocke, and Oracle could only slow her down for a while before he acknowledged that she would overcome him. Then, when Jean started to join the roster, all of Storm's mental defenses were abandoned, and all of that development she got over those many years was forgotten.

During the Lobdell/Kelly/Seagle runs, Storm's mental defenses were all but gone. She could barely hold out only the weakest of telepaths (there was one instance where she barely withstood a lowly Morlock telepath). Her indomitable will was not restored until Alan Davis came along and Jean was not on the team at all. Then, afterwards, we got Claremont back who put Storm and Jean on the same team, and he completely ignored Storm's mental defenses. Every mind attack around was able to take Storm down in order to prop up Jean during his tenure. However, once Jean was taken from him and given to Morrison, he not only restored Storm's mental defenses, but gave them a HUGE boost by establishing that she can use the electrical forces she commands to scramble telepathic assaults, thus frying invasive telepaths out of her mind when they tried to make contact with her psyche against her will.

So, it's not a simple matter of having an off-day unless a character says that on-panel.