Destroyer Odin vs Galactus

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

More than one actually. There were multiple celestials bodies falling down to earth.

It's raining proto-men ?

[Username taken]

I see the Celestials getting jobbed horribly.

Jason Aaron is slowly evolving into another Bendis.

I mean, he actually had Mjolnir destroyed by throwing it into the sun.

[big_adventure]

I see the Celestials getting jobbed horribly.

Jason Aaron is slowly evolving into another Bendis.

I mean, he actually had Mjolnir destroyed by throwing it into the sun.

Well, comic writers completely forgetting what they are writing about isn't a new thing or anything. The saddest part of this is that he forgets what he himself wrote less than two years ago, about the origin of Mjolnir.

Basically, Odin received a chunk of Uru as a gift. He disregarded it and thought it was idiotic. Then the Mother Storm attacked. He fought it to a standstill, then trapped it in the Uru (not knowing how he did so - magic, but unknown even to him, because, um, MAGNETS? AMNESIA DUST?). He brought the chunk back to the dwarves, and asked them to forge it into a weapon. They tried, damaging their forges and tools, until they towed a star into their forges and drained it of all of it's energy in one night, and used all of the energy, and destroying every forge and every tool in Nidavelir, to barely manage to make Mjolnir. So, every dwarf and every tool laying broken, they have a hammer. Odin picks it up and takes it for a spin. And destroys most of Asgard not being able to control it. Hence the worthiness enchantment: to make sure nobody else could try to do the same thing.

So, the metal that can contain the galaxy eating storm, and resist Odin's abilities to manipulate it, and requires the magical forging dwarves to expend all of the energy of a star in a day and destroy all of their tools in the process, is destroyed by flying into a sun. Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

Ignoring of course Thor fighting in and flying through stars before, with the hammer in hand. And all of the other ridiculous crap the hammer has toughed through over the years.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Well, comic writers completely forgetting what they are writing about isn't a new thing or anything. The saddest part of this is that he forgets what he himself wrote less than two years ago, about the origin of Mjolnir.

Basically, Odin received a chunk of Uru as a gift. He disregarded it and thought it was idiotic. Then the Mother Storm attacked. He fought it to a standstill, then trapped it in the Uru (not knowing how he did so - magic, but unknown even to him, because, um, MAGNETS? AMNESIA DUST?). He brought the chunk back to the dwarves, and asked them to forge it into a weapon. They tried, damaging their forges and tools, until they towed a star into their forges and drained it of all of it's energy in one night, and used all of the energy, and destroying every forge and every tool in Nidavelir, to barely manage to make Mjolnir. So, every dwarf and every tool laying broken, they have a hammer. Odin picks it up and takes it for a spin. And destroys most of Asgard not being able to control it. Hence the worthiness enchantment: to make sure nobody else could try to do the same thing.

So, the metal that can contain the galaxy eating storm, and resist Odin's abilities to manipulate it, and requires the magical forging dwarves to expend all of the energy of a star in a day and destroy all of their tools in the process, is destroyed by flying into a sun. Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

Ignoring of course Thor fighting in and flying through stars before, with the hammer in hand. And all of the other ridiculous crap the hammer has toughed through over the years.

Well, and the fight against Gorr where they burnt a star out.

Which had two versions of Mjolnir front and center.

Or when those two Mjolnir absorbed the energy of a time-spanning "god bomb".

... sigh.

[Nik Hasta]

I've never full understood where the Celestials were supposed to stand in the cosmic hierarchy honestly.

Like, from their conception, obviously they are the cosmic space gods to Odin's more terrestrial-based godhood back when Odin was kind of considered to be one of the bigger deals in the MU setting. However, since then, we've gotten Galactus, Chaos and Order, Eternity, Death, Infinity, Beyonders and the Vishanti et al and all of that lot. So, Odin and other Earth-centre Skyfathers have had - to my mind - a form of conceptual nerf.

Celestials were meant to be the gods to the terrestrial gods but now their position feels a little bit superfluous. They tend to operate on a planetary scale, what with their influencing species and the like, and, as far as I recall, they don't operate in the "facet of the universe" bracket that Galactus and his peers play around in.

So, where are they meant to sit? Like... a halfway house between Odin and Galactus? But then they can throw down with Galactus and his kin?

This is likely just a lack of reading around the subject on my part but I just don't really know how to think about the Celestials.

[Beadle]

I always pitch them a little below Big G, such that he can take one or two of them pretty handily but if they dogpile him he’s going down eventually.

Which is still a country mile above Odin.

[big_adventure]

Yeah, it's a little murky. They have been most often (and originally) portrayed as a race of progenitor space gods, who seed planets with life, then judge the results. Later, they added a bunch of other stuff: there was an original, unique universe, the First Firmament. It was lonely. It created Celestials to hang out with. They were sort of limitless in number. But some were dedicated and some were rebels, so they got down to fighting. And what is left is the Celestial host.

Now, power-level-wise, they have generally been portrayed, at least in groups, as pretty far past the toughest of skyfathers. Odin, who should know such things, figured that he could take them with the Destroyer, his pig-sticker, and some absorbed power (even if all the power he absorbed was like 0.001 of an Odin, at that time anyway). Odin was shown to be wrong, getting brutalized by a group of them, and being incapable of dishing lasting harm. But, of course, that level has varied massively over the years. They were engaged with the Watchers in the most boring war ever for billions of years, since Watchers just watch, there wasn't generally a lot of actual battling. When there was, Celestials had the upper hand, but not to the degree of trivially swatting Watchers like gnats. PR Beyonder trivially beat all of them at the same time to show off to Boom Boom, fighting across billions of dimensions just 'cause, but that is PR Beyonder and he's, um, Beyond?

Galactus' best feats are MASSIVELY better than anything shown by any Celestial, outside of that one silly fight with Frank & Co. and the Celestial Voltron (where Big G still showed he was far superior to any one of them). Big G's best, all by himself, include teleporting two galaxies across the universe with a thought, bringing Taa 2 (a solar-system sized spaceship and the largest, most potent source of energy in the universe) to Battleworld in the same fashion when weak, rifling off a multi-solar-system blast (when the early-warning people mentioned it, it had already consumed 3, and was still expanding omni-directionally without slowing) with a thought while starving and just after being tortured and imprisoned for months. Celestials, outside of those crazy 4 from the Voltron saga, just lack individual feats approaching those. They would also often have one or two show up whenever the cosmics assemble to resist some badguy, and they often get to play the role of Worf very well: they namelessly get red-shirted to show how serious the threat is.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah but later a single Celestial also kinda no sells his blast and puts him down.this after whatever power up Franklin gave him. Like I said not all Celestials are made equal.

Good point. Certainly they are not.

I'm still of the opinion that flat-out killing one while fighting four of them is better than having the bunch of them laughing off one's attacks, casually. Basically, Galactus comes off looking like an actual threat versus Odin looking like he's basically nothing to them.

[The Dork Knight]

So this has been addressed already but since people keep wrongly using one example..

Galactus' best feats are MASSIVELY better than anything shown by any Celestial, outside of that one silly fight with Frank & Co. and the Celestial Voltron (where Big G still showed he was far superior to any one of them).

No he did not show himself to be "far superior". Firstly this was a Galactus fed on 4 planets, which is unusual in that Galactus' usual state is generally "hungry". Secondly here's what Hickman said on the matter

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3989-54833.png

This is verified by what happens in the comic where Reeds father confirms Franklin, Aka the guy who resurrected Galactus, cannot beat THREE of them on his own either

https://s31.postimg.cc/cb4wymz23/image.jpg

And finally in the comic itself AFTER Franklin charged him with enough energy to make him glow blue, he sure killed one celestial. The other though..

https://s31.postimg.cc/v3gs27nqj/image.jpg

It's important to note that the one he DID manage to kill was overpowering Franklin before Franklin resurrected G. And the one that seemingly took him out of the fight in the scan above, was beaten by Franklin

To me it seems obvious that it's less Galactus > Celestial and Franklin > Celestial and rather Galactus + Franklin > 4 Celestials. Or rather that it takes a crap ton of energy to take down a Celestial and either Galactus or Franklin on their own would have "burnt out" at two at best despite their apparent ease in taking down one each

[big_adventure]

So this has been addressed already but since people keep wrongly using one example..


No he did not show himself to be "far superior". Firstly this was a Galactus fed on 4 planets, which is unusual in that Galactus' usual state is generally "hungry". Secondly here's what Hickman said on the matter

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...3989-54833.png

This is verified by what happens in the comic where Reeds father confirms Franklin, Aka the guy who resurrected Galactus, cannot beat THREE of them on his own either

https://s31.postimg.cc/cb4wymz23/image.jpg

And finally in the comic itself AFTER Franklin charged him with enough energy to make him glow blue, he sure killed one celestial. The other though..

https://s31.postimg.cc/v3gs27nqj/image.jpg

It's important to note that the one he DID manage to kill was overpowering Franklin before Franklin resurrected G. And the one that seemingly took him out of the fight in the scan above, was beaten by Franklin

To me it seems obvious that it's less Galactus > Celestial and Franklin > Celestial and rather Galactus + Franklin > 4 Celestials. Or rather that it takes a crap ton of energy to take down a Celestial and either Galactus or Franklin on their own would have "burnt out" at two at best despite their apparent ease in taking down one each

Everything you say is true buuuuuut it ignores something pretty clear: those 4 Celestials were written a fair degree higher than Celestials have been generally written before or since. Franklin is a universe-level reality warper, and Celestials are generally NOT written on that tier at ALL. Yet they fight fine with him. Galactus is written as a multi-galaxy level dude at least, without the UI. And again, his on-panel feats are FAR beyond anything the Celestials have shown outside of that arc. But they fought pretty well with him. Those particular Celestials, recall, were running over Reeds armed with Infinity Gauntlets when they offed the Council of Reeds. And any Reed "I can rebuild the universe with my mind and this not-gun-thingy" ought to be able to use a Gauntlet to erase Celestials, given what people less capable than a Reed have done with the thing over the years.

[The Dork Knight]

Big G's best, all by himself, include teleporting two galaxies across the universe with a thought, bringing Taa 2 (a solar-system sized spaceship and the largest, most potent source of energy in the universe) to Battleworld in the same fashion when weak, rifling off a multi-solar-system blast (when the early-warning people mentioned it, it had already consumed 3, and was still expanding omni-directionally without slowing) with a thought while starving and just after being tortured and imprisoned for months. Celestials, outside of those crazy 4 from the Voltron saga, just lack individual feats approaching those. They would also often have one or two show up whenever the cosmics assemble to resist some badguy, and they often get to play the role of Worf very well: they namelessly get red-shirted to show how serious the threat is.

Ehh Celestials aren't that far behind. In Infinity Gauntlet, two of them hurled a literal solar system at Thanos. This aside from doing far better than Galactus against Odin for example. In X termination, 4 Celestials (unnamed) split the universe into the multiverse to contain seal off their creations.

The Dreaming Celestial has his own thing on the other hand, including once driving Galactus to grow ravenously hungry /literally galactic size unable to move,aside from multiversal reality warping .and in heroes reborn, the Celestial Ashema absorbed Franklin's universe

[The Dork Knight]

The problem here is trying to fit Celestials into a one size fits all kinda thing. While they generally across the board have some similarities like say Asgardians, they also have their own Thors and Odins

Their baselines are also far from as clearly defined.

Celestials are basically super powerful space race that are convenient plot devices just about low enough to be taken down by Avengers sorts with some doohickey, just about powerful enough to take on the cosmic order when one of them goes "rogue" and just about potent enough that having a bigger threat take down the Celestial host gives us an idea of how badass they are

[The Dork Knight]

Everything you say is true buuuuuut it ignores something pretty clear: those 4 Celestials were written a fair degree higher than Celestials have been generally written before or since. Franklin is a universe-level reality warper, and Celestials are generally NOT written on that tier at ALL. Yet they fight fine with him. Galactus is written as a multi-galaxy level dude at least, without the UI. And again, his on-panel feats are FAR beyond anything the Celestials have shown outside of that arc. But they fought pretty well with him. Those particular Celestials, recall, were running over Reeds armed with Infinity Gauntlets when they offed the Council of Reeds. And any Reed "I can rebuild the universe with my mind and this not-gun-thingy" ought to be able to use a Gauntlet to erase Celestials, given what people less capable than a Reed have done with the thing over the years.

Hickman specifically said these Celestials were equal in power to their 616 counterparts

Which, as noted have occasionally tended to mess around on a universal - multiversal scale without even going to such things as Scathan seemingly being above the living tribunal

[big_adventure]

Well, all I can say is "comics, yo."

Writers are very inconsistent. Silver Surfer got KO'd by a brick, chucked by a human demonstrator, once. Hal Jordan fell down and knocked himself out on the edge of his bathtub, while wearing his ring.

But your general point is fair: Celestials are a race, with some stronger and some weaker.

Comparing what Big G did against Odin versus what the gang o'Celestials did 30 years prior, though, well, that smacks of "Fraction didn't know what was written before, not in detail." Which is fine, really, and about what we expect out of comics. And for all of that, Odin basically somewhat stunned Galactus to some extent - he knocked him down, which was a useful plot device to lead to the birth of Praetor and the locking of the Surfer on Earth again, meanwhile that Cosmic Headbutt knocked Odin straight into the Odinsleep. Fraction also wrote Thor as very capable of beating Surfer, but not even Ryvurg is likely to claim that for the guy.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Well, all I can say is "comics, yo."

Writers are very inconsistent. Silver Surfer got KO'd by a brick, chucked by a human demonstrator, once. Hal Jordan fell down and knocked himself out on the edge of his bathtub, while wearing his ring.

But your general point is fair: Celestials are a race, with some stronger and some weaker.

Comparing what Big G did against Odin versus what the gang o'Celestials did 30 years prior, though, well, that smacks of "Fraction didn't know what was written before, not in detail." Which is fine, really, and about what we expect out of comics. And for all of that, Odin basically somewhat stunned Galactus to some extent - he knocked him down, which was a useful plot device to lead to the birth of Praetor and the locking of the Surfer on Earth again, meanwhile that Cosmic Headbutt knocked Odin straight into the Odinsleep. Fraction also wrote Thor as very capable of beating Surfer, but not even Ryvurg is likely to claim that for the guy.

Ah yes. Praetor, a concept so boring and poorly presented that everybody ignored the character's existence after his introduction. And rightly so.