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  1. #46
    Incredible Member Wissenschaft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I'm willing to see where this comic goes, but so far it feels very by the numbers.
    It feels like Avenger story arcs have been crazy for years now. I'm in the mood for a by the numbers story. Which is probably why I'm ok with the comic so far.

  2. #47
    Incredible Member Muffinman's Avatar
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    I was super upsetting hearing the news that Uncanny Avengers was being cancelled because they were going with one avengers book and one book only. The one book is shaping up to me quite Meh.

  3. #48
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    A lot things just seemed so forced in this issue.

    Like why were She-Hulk and Robbie's nonsensical panel hogging presence in this issue? They were boring and didn't add anything to the story.

    Stark and Danver seemed chummy with each other, did they had the "you put me in coma" talk already?

  4. #49
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    I don't know much about the current She-Hulk and I can't comment about her.

    That being said something about the book seems...a bit strange.

    It's a fun book though and I'm curious about where the story goes to next.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    This issue is a real mishmash. Partly because it is almost entirely set-up disguised as a heavy action issue. The action doesn't really progress the story, so is mostly inconsequential. That in itself is not bad. Part of this set-up is letting the readers know how big a threat The Last Host are, and how they fit into the wider narrative, while introducing the team and their general issues. This is done in a workmanlike way through Loki's narration, but even that falls a little flat.

    Again, the narration is functional, it plays directly to the developing theme of how Loki was instrumental in the birth of The Avengers, and also the Avengers of the distant past. It also gives a little more context to what the Last Host are up to, and develops the evolutionary themes. The problem is that the narration feels too much like an omniscient narrator and not enough like a recognisable Loki.

    That brings us to the thorny issue of characterisation. While I don't really have any time for the overprotective nature of comments like "Aaron is messing with my favourite character" as if he is somehow not allowed to, there are clear inconsistencies that unfortunately such fans will just have to dislike. This is a team book and characters in team books have NEVER been entirely consistent with solo books. Not now and not in the past. This is mainstream superhero comics.

    However the inconsistencies may need exploration at some point down the line, to make sense of them. Jen was placed back as a wholly green figure with a plan for her life, and now she is back to traumatic and damaged. It will be relatively easy to tidy this up. The simplest way would be if Aaron includes a time gap after this set-up arc, and just says this all happened earlier in Jen's story (around the time it was most likely written). However I don't think this is the way Aaron wants to go, and some fans may just have to go with it. Most likely Aaron is exploring the wider Hulk archetype, as part of his exploration of the Avengers as a collection of archetypes that have reoccurred over time. I expect the argument about her being written like Bruce to continue. Not because Aaron will necessarily do this, but because the Bruce/Hulk is the archetype, and will probably be the main analogous reference for Aaron's exploration.

    Ghost-Rider is a trickier issue. The way Robbie seems to be talking directly to the car does seem odd. Weirdly for me I have been reading the Reyes Ghost-Rider stories, despite not really being a traditional Ghost Rider fan. I suspect deep down, even Felipe Smith thought of the possession as being facilitated through the car, because essentially the Ghost-Rider archetype is tied to modes of transport (it is kind of in the name). But Robbie has been portrayed as having internal dialogue not dialogue with his car. The car has magically repaired itself a few times, suggesting a very clear link between the possession and the vehicle, but intellectually neither Robbie nor Felipe Smith ever made this direct connection, and so Robbie wondering why the car isn't speaking to him just strikes an odd chord.

    Aaron's use of the Penance Stare in Legacy, actually clues us into the wider themes he may be developing. He may be suggesting that the archetypes are sometimes moulding and overtaking the individual incarnations of various characters. A kind of meta-commentary on how the comics drift legacy characters, moving between characters as individuals while being continually reset back to defaults. That's kind of Aaron's shtick, stories that examine the nature of the comic medium. It's also why some will inevitably find his work frustrating and bewildering. He can be read by a casual reader because he has plenty going on on the surface, but under the surface he is not interested in the same things as many more traditional comic fans.

    So back to this issue. Aaron is already doing his thing, and inevitably he is already dividing readers. Even myself, as a big fan of his work, find this issue jarring and problematic. The difference is I expect him to begin firing on all cylinders as the run progresses because I trust him as a writer with interesting things to say. Your mileage may vary.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-17-2018 at 02:37 AM.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I don't know much about the current She-Hulk and I can't comment about her.

    That being said something about the book seems...a bit strange.

    It's a fun book though and I'm curious about where the story goes to next.
    I think the definite strangeness comes from Aaron actually trying to get a lot of things onto the page a little too fast. In an age when comics are often accused of not doing enough in an issue this one demonstrates how difficult it can be to use a modern style while trying to cram in a huge amount.

    This problem leads to the narration being very expository, and the characterisations using very broad-brush-strokes. It is also starting from scratch, so it needs to be new-reader friendly.

    The twenty pages of story are perhaps being forced to carry far too much. Especially given the number of splash pages and large panels for the main charters, which are probably considered important to draw in a new audience.

    There is a very low panel to page ratio here - just over three per page but with some artfully divided panels potentially making for a higher virtual panel count. The narration seeks to slow down the reading speed but the action literally races ahead. Hopefully, once the expository duties have been done, this pace issue may settle.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by protege View Post
    Like deku, i dropped the she hulk book around the third or fourth issue, because of the long slow build that never went anywhere, so i donít know about jenís issues, or how they were resolved.
    Likewise I quit it on issue 4

    I git tired of no actual she hulk being there, and the teaser for the next issues suggesting there would be with no return

    I also hated where they took the character though I appreciate it made sense given what had happened to her recently, but it was just far too removed from jennifer for me to enjoy

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    Stark and Danver seemed chummy with each other, did they had the "you put me in coma" talk already?
    They might have.

    Or, with dead Celestials falling from the sky, they might both realize that there's a bigger problem to deal with at the moment.

  9. #54
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    However the inconsistencies may need exploration at some point down the line, to make sense of them. Jen was placed back as a wholly green figure with a plan for her life, and now she is back to traumatic and damaged. It will be relatively easy to tidy this up. The simplest way would be if Aaron includes a time gap after this set-up arc, and just says this all happened earlier in Jen's story (around the time it was most likely written). However I don't think this is the way Aaron wants to go, and some fans may just have to go with it. Most likely Aaron is exploring the wider Hulk archetype, as part of his exploration of the Avengers as a collection of archetypes that have reoccurred over time. I expect the argument about her being written like Bruce to continue. Not because Aaron will necessarily do this, but because the Bruce/Hulk is the archetype, and will probably be the main analogous reference for Aaron's exploration.
    And the problem with that would be Jen is cured and back to being green. This behavior has only been seen in grey she-hulk form and even then, the Tamaki's Grey She Hulk never acted like this. With one exception, her grey she hulk was heroic and tried to help, talking very, very little. The only time She Hulk actually acted and talked like she did in this comic anywhere else... was in Aaron's Mighty Thor.

    And that's the problem. Aaron doesn't seem to get Jen and whatever form she's in, outside of her early appearances, isn't Bruce Banner Hulk, but female. Also, this can't be earlier in Jen's story. Why? She's green. This behavior was only in Aaron's grey She Hulk take. She's since recovered and we've seen that she is in control now and that her green form is normal.

    This means there is problems here. Either:
    1. Either Aaron is ignoring Tamaki's run that's a little over two months old, which seems kind of bad and disrespectful to a colleague's hard work.
    2. The colorist and editor screwed up and had her green when she should still be grey.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    And the problem with that would be Jen is cured and back to being green. This behavior has only been seen in grey she-hulk form and even then, the Tamaki's Grey She Hulk never acted like this. With one exception, her grey she hulk was heroic and tried to help, talking very, very little. The only time She Hulk actually acted and talked like she did in this comic anywhere else... was in Aaron's Mighty Thor.
    This is only a problem when people want it to be. Simple as that. We could equally pull out a comic from any era of comics and find this "problem". This is just how comics are. You may demand more as a reader, but Marvel clearly don't worry about it as much as you do. A hand waving explanation in exposition is the most you can expect. Even that is often criticised by fans. Sometimes characters serve the story, sometimes characters are the story. Solo books are often the latter type and team books are usually the former. It is actually much more difficult to marry these two very different demands than is often credited by the demand of readers.

    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    And that's the problem. Aaron doesn't seem to get Jen and whatever form she's in, outside of her early appearances, isn't Bruce Banner Hulk, but female.
    See now you jump from a consistency demand, which is understandable but sadly not easy, and go straight for the writer is wrong or ignorant, which is blatantly not true and an attack on the individual. Aaron would have pitched this book with a specific characterisation and arc for Jen. He is not responsible for the inconsistency. If you want to apportion blame it is up to the editors, and clearly they don't see this as a problem. Aaron may even have talked to Tamaki about this - probably before his book was cancelled. I dare say back when this story was pitched Tamaki was being told his run would theoretically last much longer sales depending. He would presumably have worked towards his ending much slower. A lot has shifted since then. Editorial have made some substantial shifts. That is the challenge of comics. Writers have to work in this environment but it isn't their fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    Also, this can't be earlier in Jen's story. Why? She's green. This behavior was only in Aaron's grey She Hulk take. She's since recovered and we've seen that she is in control now and that her green form is normal.

    This means there is problems here. Either:
    1. Either Aaron is ignoring Tamaki's run that's a little over two months old, which seems kind of bad and disrespectful to a colleague's hard work.
    2. The colorist and editor screwed up and had her green when she should still be grey.
    My bet is he will write it off as being either earlier or later. It won't match up exactly but there is nothing novel about this. It happens every single week to some extent or other. Continuity is an illusion.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-17-2018 at 04:22 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This issue is a real mishmash. Partly because it is almost entirely set-up disguised as a heavy action issue. The action doesn't really progress the story, so is mostly inconsequential. That in itself is not bad. Part of this set-up is letting the readers know how big a threat The Last Host are, and how they fit into the wider narrative, while introducing the team and their general issues. This is done in a workmanlike way through Loki's narration, but even that falls a little flat.

    Again, the narration is functional, it plays directly to the developing theme of how Loki was instrumental in the birth of The Avengers, and also the Avengers of the distant past. It also gives a little more context to what the Last Host are up to, and develops the evolutionary themes. The problem is that the narration feels too much like an omniscient narrator and not enough like a recognisable Loki.
    It could be residual elements of his god of stories from Ewing's AoA. Perhaps Aaron didn't completely do away with this and this is his way of using something that was never truly defined and getting rid of the OP aspects that would have changed Loki completely.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    It could be residual elements of his god of stories from Ewing's AoA. Perhaps Aaron didn't completely do away with this and this is his way of using something that was never truly defined and getting rid of the OP aspects that would have changed Loki completely.
    Yes I certainly see this as a probable reason. I just don't think it worked very well for my tastes. As you can see I was somewhat conflicted over this issue, despite generally enjoying the story so far and this issue's part in it. I do think Aaron is touching upon Loki as time meddler which is highly compatible with Ewing's story. But I am not really a fan of the way Ewing over stated this even though I like the beginning and end of his run.

    From my reading of Aaron's portrayal so far I expect this god of stories aspect to stay firmly in the sub-text. I would bet we never see Loki use this description of himself in this tale, even though the way he sees himself as the author of The Avengers is clearly signposted.

  13. #58
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    I think what's happening to Jen makes sense, if you allow Loki's "Storytelling Magic" is affecting her to be "The Hulk" in Loki's narrative.

  14. #59
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    I feel like we're only two issues in and we know how slow Aaron can go with these things. I think rpmaluki and beetee are right on the money about how Loki could be influencing the "story" elements of this. It has been an established fact that Marvel comics take place in an imagunary world and that the ultimate authority is the writer, in this case Aaron. However, due to the type of character he is, Loki is a major influence here.

  15. #60
    Fantastic Member Sensational C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    A lot things just seemed so forced in this issue.

    Like why were She-Hulk and Robbie's nonsensical panel hogging presence in this issue? They were boring and didn't add anything to the story.
    She-Hulk and Ghost Rider's panel time is to set up that there is cure since She-Hulk was the only one close by Eson to hear him and the cure probably has something to do with Ghost Rider.

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