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  1. #1
    Amazing Member Blastaar's Avatar
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    Default Why do you think the Fourth World was not a commercial success initially?

    Thoughts? Reading through the omnibus now.

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    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    From what I understand, one of the problems it had was that it was too deep and complex for readers at the time.
    And with all three being bi-monthly, and more serialized and less episodic, readers had to retain story threads longer.

    And some places may have just chosen not to carry them. I remember in the '80s, most of the 7-11s and other outlets in my area would carry the Superman and Batman titles and a few of the other DC titles. And each place would have a different selection of books, with Batman and Detective being the two that could be found just about anywhere.

    It was similar with Marvel, also. I remember having to go to several places to find someone carrying Avengers.
    I was already buying some Marvel titles, but when we briefly moved to another town, I discovered Avengers and ROM. When we moved back, I never found ROM anywhere but I did find a pharmacy that carried Avengers.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

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    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    If I didn't know who the New Gods were, I would find volume one of Kirby's omnibus intriguing, but not exactly the most coherent introduction to a new mythical world meant to stand above almost everything in the DCU.

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    It still hasn't been a commercial success.

    It was filled with bad dialogue, cardboard characters and situations too far removed from humanity to be relatable. Above all, it was never designed to go on. Jack Kirby wanted it to end, but to this day DC has never honored his intent.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    It still hasn't been a commercial success.

    It was filled with bad dialogue, cardboard characters and situations too far removed from humanity to be relatable. Above all, it was never designed to go on. Jack Kirby wanted it to end, but to this day DC has never honored his intent.
    wow, where to begin. i'll leave the first part alone. to each their own, but...damn.

    yes, initially Kirby had intended the New Gods saga to have an ending. but he also wanted other writers to take over some of the books, like Mister Miracle, and keep them going. DC didn't allow him to bring in other creators. the titles were eventually cancelled and Kirby left DC. In 1984 Jenette Kahn and Paul Levitz had Kirby re-design the Fourth World characters for the Super Powers toyline as a way of entitling him to royalties for several of his DC creations. In 1985 they gave him the opportunity to finally tell the end story to his New Gods saga. Instead he turned in The Hunger Dogs. By this time Kirby no longer wanted his New Gods story to come to an end because he was making more money with them than all the Marvel characters he created combined. So no, Kirby didn't always want the New Gods story to end. And no, DC didn't completely ruin his vision. in fact they paid him more than Marvel ever did and gave him the opportunity to finish his story. Kirby chose not to.
    Last edited by Robotman; 05-16-2018 at 04:48 PM.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    wow, where to begin. i'll leave the first part alone. to each their own, but...damn.

    yes, initially Kirby had intended the New Gods saga to have an ending. but he also wanted other writers to take over some of the books, like Mister Miracle, and keep them going. DC didn't allow him to bring in other creators. the titles were eventually cancelled and Kirby left DC. In 1984 Jenette Kahn and Paul Levitz had Kirby re-design the Fourth World characters for the Super Powers toyline as a way of entitling him to royalties for several of his DC creations. In 1985 they gave him the opportunity to finally tell the end story to his New Gods saga. Instead he turned in The Hunger Dogs. By this time Kirby no longer wanted his New Gods story to come to an end because he was making more money with them than all the Marvel characters he created combined. So no, Kirby didn't always want the New Gods story to end. And no, DC didn't completely ruin his vision. in fact they paid him more than Marvel ever did and gave him the opportunity to finish his story. Kirby chose not to.
    To add to this...
    Kirby originally was pushing for Thor and the Asgardians to die over at Marvel, with the New Gods replacing them. But a little thing called 'Marvel Time' had been introduced in 1968 due to money being discovered in licensing the characters out for cartoons and merchandise, which brought an end to Marvel's evolutionary period. And killing Thor became a no-no.
    So Kirby took his idea to DC when he jumped ship.

    I actually liked New Gods and the Fourth World stuff, because even though I'm not a God from a distant planet, I can still appreciate symbolism, allusions, allegory and other high literary concepts. And I've always loved Greek mythology with good soap opera elements that anyone can empathize with.
    Of course, I also love Star Trek and Twilight Zone, two '60s television shows both steeped with symbolism, allusions and allegory because the stories they wanted to tell wouldn't pass the censors otherwise. And if they were actually allowed to be told straight out, I'd wager that neither series would have become the classics they are today.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  7. #7
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    If you look at new titles DC launched in the late 1960s/early 1970s, you find few that survived for more than a couple of years. Most died very soon. I think when I looked at this before GHOSTS was the big one that stayed the longest, followed by other horror books.

    DC had more success with their established titles maybe because the distributor and retailers backed those proven commodities but lacked faith in the new stuff.

    So it was a systemic problem and not limited to the Kirby work.

    Anyway, I’m happy Kirby did KAMANDI—or I might never have become a fan.

  8. #8
    Amazing Member Blastaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    It still hasn't been a commercial success.

    It was filled with bad dialogue, cardboard characters and situations too far removed from humanity to be relatable. Above all, it was never designed to go on. Jack Kirby wanted it to end, but to this day DC has never honored his intent.
    Not sure about him not wanting it to go on. DC gave him Kamndi after they cancelled the bulk of the Fourth World because the needed a project for him. Kamandi as I understand was meant for someone else with Kirby providing direction which makes me wonder if it was supposed to tie into the Fourth World narrative.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastaar View Post
    Not sure about him not wanting it to go on. DC gave him Kamndi after they cancelled the bulk of the Fourth World because the needed a project for him. Kamandi as I understand was meant for someone else with Kirby providing direction which makes me wonder if it was supposed to tie into the Fourth World narrative.


    I could be wrong but the story I heard was that originally DC wanted to do Planet of The Apes but couldn't get the rights ( Marvel eventually got them)...they then asked Kirby if he could come up with similar concept?

  10. #10
    Amazing Member Blastaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    [/B]

    I could be wrong but the story I heard was that originally DC wanted to do Planet of The Apes but couldn't get the rights ( Marvel eventually got them)...they then asked Kirby if he could come up with similar concept?
    Correct, they were looking to him to come up with the a similar concept but he was not going to provide the art as he was focused on the other projects. At least that's what I remember reading.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    It still hasn't been a commercial success.

    It was filled with bad dialogue, cardboard characters and situations too far removed from humanity to be relatable. Above all, it was never designed to go on. Jack Kirby wanted it to end, but to this day DC has never honored his intent.
    "Shellshocked veteran struggles with his war experiences while holding on to hate", "Flower power children go on a road trip" and "Superpowered escape artist" are hrdley too far removed from humanity. Individual issues dealt with themes even more applicable to the everyday person- Dangers of fundamentalist religion in the era of the Evangelical Revival and televangelists (The Forever People #3), the Cold War and the horror of the arms race (New Gods #7), the indomitable human spirit in the face of overwhelming odds (New Gods #8) to the necessity of tempering science with compassion as well the inevitable rise of the beaten underclass (The Hunger Dogs).

    While I can understand criticisms of bad dialogue- like opera, Kirby is an acquired taste- the other two criticisms just don't hold water. The early 70s were changing things up, but at the time, DC was still largely cardboard characters, so that doesn't really make it any worse than any other title DC had. Plus, as others have stated above me, it's a bit misleading to say Kirby wanted it to end. He had a finite story in mind, true, but it was also designed to springboard other creators telling their own stories, and the Super Powers era relaunch of the New Gods brought Jack more money than any of his other comic work, from what I've heard.

    That's not even getting into the questionable nature of the original cancellation. I'm having trouble finding it, but I know I've read articles saying the alleged failure of the books to get readers is questionable considering the level of fan interaction re: the letters received.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    It still hasn't been a commercial success.

    It was filled with bad dialogue, cardboard characters and situations too far removed from humanity to be relatable. Above all, it was never designed to go on. Jack Kirby wanted it to end, but to this day DC has never honored his intent.
    I agree with you mostly. Of course, this is just a matter of taste.

    Sandy Hausler

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    It's interesting, because I think a lot about how to incorporate the New Gods and Apokoliptans into the DCU at large and wonder why it hasn't yet been done so. I wasn't around for the initial release, but the characters, especially the New Gods, were always a little on-the-nose to me; Lightray, Highfather, Big Bear, etc. Kind of like the He-Man characters in Masters of the Universe. (Which I love BTW when played straight and not tongue-in-cheek, so maybe that's what I'm looking for in the New Gods.) Amidst other attempts at "cosmic" stories and setting, something just didn't click for me.

    The dark side of the pantheon seems like the stronger of the concepts too. Darkseid, Desaad, Kalibak, Tigra, Heggra, Orion, Granny Goodness, Kanto, the Female Furies, and others in Darkseid's Elite are far more interesting than the New Gods. Metron is a great character, but of the other New Gods, Big Barda and Mister Miracle are probably the most interesting and even those two have origins that are dependent on ties to evil.

    Otherwise lately, and except for maybe Morrison's ideas with them, they've become stagnant. DC has never properly dove into their divinity in comparison to other divinities to make them unique and they have really pushed their grand background theme of technology as god into the new Millennium. I mean, we're all essentially using Mother Boxes right now, so how do the New Gods continue to "be" what's next and somewhat the "unknown." That takes a lot of work and a visionary. The Legion of Super-Heroes has a bit of the same challenge - depicting what's next for sentient beings far in the future and incorporating that into their soap opera and action and adventure.

    Just for fun, I'd love to see an editorial office designated as dealing with this and adding some conceptualization and especially consistency when it comes to depicting the New Gods in titles. Or an overarching story arc that has the characters interacting with the DCU.

    I don't see them gaining anything or becoming more interesting characters, until they stop playing so fast and loose with them.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    It's interesting, because I think a lot about how to incorporate the New Gods and Apokoliptans into the DCU at large and wonder why it hasn't yet been done so. I wasn't around for the initial release, but the characters, especially the New Gods, were always a little on-the-nose to me; Lightray, Highfather, Big Bear, etc. Kind of like the He-Man characters in Masters of the Universe. (Which I love BTW when played straight and not tongue-in-cheek, so maybe that's what I'm looking for in the New Gods.) Amidst other attempts at "cosmic" stories and setting, something just didn't click for me.

    The dark side of the pantheon seems like the stronger of the concepts too. Darkseid, Desaad, Kalibak, Tigra, Heggra, Orion, Granny Goodness, Kanto, the Female Furies, and others in Darkseid's Elite are far more interesting than the New Gods. Metron is a great character, but of the other New Gods, Big Barda and Mister Miracle are probably the most interesting and even those two have origins that are dependent on ties to evil.

    Otherwise lately, and except for maybe Morrison's ideas with them, they've become stagnant. DC has never properly dove into their divinity in comparison to other divinities to make them unique and they have really pushed their grand background theme of technology as god into the new Millennium. I mean, we're all essentially using Mother Boxes right now, so how do the New Gods continue to "be" what's next and somewhat the "unknown." That takes a lot of work and a visionary. The Legion of Super-Heroes has a bit of the same challenge - depicting what's next for sentient beings far in the future and incorporating that into their soap opera and action and adventure.

    Just for fun, I'd love to see an editorial office designated as dealing with this and adding some conceptualization and especially consistency when it comes to depicting the New Gods in titles. Or an overarching story arc that has the characters interacting with the DCU.

    I don't see them gaining anything or becoming more interesting characters, until they stop playing so fast and loose with them.
    I think this is a fair criticism. Which is why I think Mr. Miracle has been so good recently. It has a very human down to Earth central focus, but the larger than life cosmic entities in a holy war are taken as they are and should be. But I agree that over the years, not enough has been done with them. I suppose they're difficult to fully realize. Humanize them too much and they lose their entire purpose; but fail to communicate their grandiosity and cosmic character in a truly artful way and you cheapen them into a cliche.

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