Why do you think the Fourth World was not a commercial success initially?

[Sandy Hausler]

DC got a bunch of money from Warner when the SUPERMAN movie was going to come out (it should have come out in June but was delayed to December). .

I think you're wrong about when Superman came out. I have a clear recollection of waiting in line outside on a sunny summer day in Albany, NY. Maybe I'm thinking of some other movie, but I could swear it was Superman.

Sandy Hausler

EDIT: Checked on line, and it appears you are right. Superman II came out in June. Sorry.

[WonderScott]

I don't mind their connection to the Superman mythos, and something could be said for making a stronger tie to Wonder Woman and the Olympian gods too - even if in juxtaposition to each other and their type of divinity.

In respect to Metropolis being the City of Tomorrow, there's possibly something unexplored there between the human-made tech and advances by Lex Luthor and other technology luminaries in Metropolis and the some of the New Gods and Apokoliptan's technological themes and ideations.

Again, it's going to take a visionary to take them to the next place they need to go and bring something new to the DCU. Mister Miracle is doing it right, right now, but that's seemingly not affecting all the rest of the characters in the franchise.

I'm fine if they want to treat them like powerful aliens akin to Marvel's Asgardians with special powers and abilities related to their godhood, but then just go with that and be consistent in their portrayals. You never know what you're going to get when they appear. In the last six months we've seen Diana versus Darkseid (which I think should be believable as combatants, but then Diana versus the Female Furies too and just holding her own against. Then you have Steve Trevor and Lois Lane in separate stories defeating Female Furies by themselves - that doesn't seem very Darkseid Elite to me. DCU inhabitants should be terrified when the New Gods show up, but, past Darkseid, that rarely happens. The idea that the the New Gods are a singularity in the Multiverse that Morrison introduced hasn't really been followed up on and how that defines them compared to, say, the Olympian gods or the Dark Gods of the Metalverse.

Their godliness needs more definition, along with their constitution and abilities versus other gods and humans. It's going to take a visionary to rebirth their concept and stronger editorial mandates to apply it to the characters throughout the DCU.

My comments are less a criticism and more a comment on "here's an opportunity," because I do like the idea of the New Gods if not always the execution.

[Uncanny Mutie]

One major reason is because while Jack Kirby had great ideas, he was such a TERRIBLE writer; he was definitely no Stan Lee in the writing department.

[Robotman]

One major reason is because while Jack Kirby had great ideas, he was such a TERRIBLE writer; he was definitely no Stan Lee in the writing department.

Stan Lee a great writer? Wow, super delusional.

[Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.]

Kirby's dialogue never bothered me. It can be goofy but it can be fun and at times emotionally honest on a rare level for the comics of the times. For me, the Fourth World comics are some of the few comics by DC/Marvel of that period, that I can read and genuinely enjoy. A lot of the other stuff, even by "better" writers feels unreadable to me.

[DrNewGod]

One major reason is because while Jack Kirby had great ideas, he was such a TERRIBLE writer; he was definitely no Stan Lee in the writing department.

Stan Lee a great writer? Wow, super delusional.

I think The King was a great story-crafter. That's not the same as being a great writer.

[Blastaar]

One major reason is because while Jack Kirby had great ideas, he was such a TERRIBLE writer; he was definitely no Stan Lee in the writing department.

Kirby wrote much of the Stan/Jack comics. Stan would just change a word or two and get the credit.

[Jim Kelly]

It depends what you think writing is in comic books. To me it’s more than just the words that appear on the page. And even as a wordsmith, Kirby was scripting comics for decades before the Fourth World. He also had Mark Evanier—and another guy whose name escapes me—assisting him at DC.

In terms of lingo, the Fourth World books are packed with mash-up words and homophones that are quite brilliant. The books sparkle with this mastery of language that matches the cannibalized concepts in the art. Just Mother Box itself is a bit of poetic brilliance and it confounds me how other writers have fumbled these notions and robbed them of their zing and zest.

Kirby is maybe more direct and less verbose than Stan Lee. But that’s because his artwork doesn’t need the decorative descriptions.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Stan Lee a great writer?

For his time? Definitely.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Kirby wrote much of the Stan/Jack comics. Stan would just change a word or two and get the credit.

Well let's just say as far as dialogue then. I said Kirby had great IDEAS (which is where his writing came in with Stan), but as a solo writer, they didn't seem to translate well to page, particularly the dialogue. Stan was a MASTER at dialogue for his time, though. It's what gave the characters he wrote so much personality, such distinctive voices, and what made the stories really pop. If you read Kirby's Fourth World stuff, none of the characters really have great or distinctive voices or personalities, and the stories don't really pop...

[Uncanny Mutie]

I think The King was a great story-crafter. That's not the same as being a great writer.

Thank you!!! That's exactly what I was saying.

[mr_crisp]

I'm thinking it's because it could be far out concepts that read better all at once than spread out over several months.

[Great O.G.U.F.O.O.L.]

Here's what Grant Morrison said about the subject in his intro for the first volume of "Jack kirby's Fourth World Omnibus"

Weird thing is, I wasn't a Kirby fan when I was growing up...it wasn't for me. I was familiar with the comics but Kirby's work operated at a higher frequency than my pre-adolescent brain was wired up to match; his operatic visions of burning planets and snarling sci-fi deities left me with an inner shudder of the numinous and uncanny. Kirby's dramas were staged across Jungian vistas of raw symbol and storm while I preferred the cool, formal "realism" of Neal Adams, Jim Aparo, Curt Swan, Dick Dillin and the less demanding super-soap of DC's BATMAN, SUPERMAN and JUSTICE LEAGUE titles. Kirby was too wild, too creepy, too raw.

I remember coming across the NEW GODS story, "The Glory Boat", and experiencing a near-religious sense of awe and terror. It felt like I had been mugged by the Word of God and somehow walked away - and for me, at age 11, it was too much heat, too much sturm und drang.

[CaptCleghorn]

Jack Kirby **** out more ideas in one day than most of us produce in a lifetime. The Fourth World was four bi-monthly books Kirby produced over a two year period. He basically wrote and drew a semi-monthly book. It combined huge concepts with humans and their individual personalities.

Was it polished and detailed? Nope. Kirby was the anti-Alan Moore as regards detail, but he churned out powerful stuff. I didn't appreciate it then, but I did later as I chased those issues down.

Why didn't it sell? Simple, we weren't ready.

[Jim Kelly]

It happened that the early 1970s was the Relevant Era and Neal Adams was king. Scripters like Denny O’Neil, Len Wein and Steve Gerber filled balloons with introspective speeches, where the characters explained their inner experience to the reader.

And at the time, I thought this was what great comics writing should be. But a little of that goes a long way and comics are visual. You can show character visually—you don’t always need so much dialogue and first person narration. Readers can guess the personality of each Legionnaire from how Dave Cockrum draws them and crowding the panel with too much verbiage is gilding the lily.

However, I’m not sure buyers shunned Kirby for Relevant comics, since those comics performed just as badly in sales for DC. Marvel readers were supposed to come over to DC for Kirby, but they didn’t, just as they hadn’t for Ditko. So they were more loyal to the brand than the creators. Martin Goodman even left Marvel to start a new company (Atlas) without much success.