West Coast Avengers Announced by Kelly Thompson

[JKtheMac]

But unfortunately Riri would need to delete Tony's computer worm to have acquired the specs to even reverse engineer her own armour. SO there's the flaw in Bendis's execution. Wait until someone can ake her more interesting then maybe she can get one and also cultivate a real relationship between her and her mentor.

You seem be analysing this book under an unfair microscope. Identifying things you personally don’t like and calling them out as flaws. Any work could be subject to this kind of bias. It isn’t objective just because you happen to be looking at it more carefully. You are deliberately looking for things to criticise.

[Prof. Warren]

The current climate is what saw Riri crash and burn so hard on Invincible Iron Man that Bendis was forced to undo all his mistakes, bringing back Tony Stark and Rhodey, before he left Marvel for good. If anything, Riri's failure is the only reason that Infamous Iron Man ended, Marvel pulled the plug on both books at the same time and crammed everything together in the lead up to Iron Man #600. A shame really, seeing Doom weighed down by a lacklustre character like Riri; a little more time and Doom could've quite easily supplanted Riri as the de facto Iron Man in Tony Stark's absence.

You know that Tony was always going to come back, right?

Having Tony come back isn't about "undoing mistakes," it was part of the narrative plan - just as surely as Bruce Wayne came back after Knightfall, just as surely as Steve Rogers came back after the Death of Captain America, just as surely as Peter Parker came back after Superior Spider-Man. And so on. You see a familiar pattern here?

If anyone thought that Riri was ever meant to be Tony's permanent replacement, they're awfully dense.

[Prof. Warren]

You seem be analysing this book under an unfair microscope. Identifying things you personally don’t like and calling them out as flaws. Any work could be subject to this kind of bias. It isn’t objective just because you happen to be looking at it more carefully. You are deliberately looking for things to criticise.

People should really take a moment to ask themselves why they decide to put certain characters under a scrutiny so severe that they're unable to perceive anything but faults.

That's not objective criticism. That's just trying to tear down a character in order to justify one's aversion to its existence.

[Prof. Warren]

Awfully convent to throw Bendis under a bus since he's now left Marvel. This was never just driven by Bendis, Marvel's PR machine was 100% in support of Riri and totally oblivious to the backslash that was building even during Civil War II. It was all about selling comic covers with Riri on them and never about telling a compelling story. You can see this in the way that Bendis shit the bed with Iron Man #600, he had no idea what to do with Riri once he created her.

Marvel's PR is in 100% support of every book they publish. If they didn't believe in a book, they wouldn't publish it in the first place.

And Bendis had plenty of ideas of what to do with Riri. If #600 wasn't a satisfying end to his run, it's primarily due to the fact that it was never meant to be the end.

Had Bendis stayed with Marvel, he would've stayed on Iron Man so his original plans for #600 would have been about beginning new storylines rather than hastily wrapping them up.

Who knows where Bendis would have taken Riri had he stayed on but it's certain that he had plans in mind.

[ed2962]

Marvel's PR is in 100% support of every book they publish. If they didn't believe in a book, they wouldn't publish it in the first place.

And Bendis had plenty of ideas of what to do with Riri. If #600 wasn't a satisfying end to his run, it's primarily due to the fact that it was never meant to be the end.

Had Bendis stayed with Marvel, he would've stayed on Iron Man so his original plans for #600 would have been about beginning new storylines rather than hastily wrapping them up.

Who knows where Bendis would have taken Riri had he stayed on but it's certain that he had plans in mind.

Well, I dunno...I think there's been examples of them putting out a title or two that was more about shelf space than it was believing in the concept.

[Prof. Warren]

Well, I dunno...I think there's been examples of them putting out a title or two that was more about shelf space than it was believing in the concept.

Of the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of comics that they've published over the decades I'm sure there's naturally some that they've believed in more than others but when you're talking about the direction of a main title, they're not going ahead with a direction that the writers and editors collectively haven't agreed on and don't believe in.

Whatever is going on in a book like Iron Man or The Hulk or Daredevil, it's because everyone involved is on board with it. Whatever reception it gets, the belief that it was a story worth telling was behind it.

[Skedatz]

See, this, I'll agree with. Bendis fumbled some aspects of the story quite a bit, and didn't tell the strongest story he could have. Truth be told, I just didn't really care about Riri under Bendis' pen. But I do see her as a character with a lot of potential, and I hope she gets the chance for that potential to be explored, without loud, grudge-bearing asses continuing to try to shout her into limbo. Because, again, Stark's back, so there is no reason for any of those people to continue their incessant whining about Riri.

The part where it really all clicked for me that her concept and execution wasn't working was during a flashback at a party where her parents were treating her like Damian the anti-christ, then flipping back to the present where she was lock, stock, and barrel ready to at least try being in the mold of a hero. Which was fine, but it meant there was quite a bit of issue real estate devoted to how unsure everybody was of Riri as a developing person. I mean, she just didn't really have any moment where she talked or behaved in a way which suggested she didn't care for heroic methods and would've been fine employing less than heroic methods. Instead she was always just pretty much heroic if not just a bit lonely and cocky.

Awfully convent to throw Bendis under a bus since he's now left Marvel. This was never just driven by Bendis, Marvel's PR machine was 100% in support of Riri and totally oblivious to the backslash that was building even during Civil War II. It was all about selling comic covers with Riri on them and never about telling a compelling story. You can see this in the way that Bendis shit the bed with Iron Man #600, he had no idea what to do with Riri once he created her.

I'm always ready to throw Bendis under a bus, but Marvel works as a collaborative effort. Bendis had the idea and Marvel felt it fit with the oncoming deaths of Rhodes and Stark. Marvel at this point had to know what sort of backlash they were inviting since it wasn't like some people weren't vocally up in arms with Sam Wilson as Captain America or Jane Foster as Thor. They knew there would be a subsection of comic fans who didn't want to really see black people or females take over traditionally white male roles. They expected it with Riri, but felt it wouldn't be enough of a negative to ask Bendis to change Riri around.

Well I did enjoy Riri as a concept too a shame. But aside from Bendis's hard to read dialogue and his bizarre way of writing young girls it was so badly executed. Because aside from that for her to cobble together her first armour by taking scraps of Tony's own armours was flawed. Tony used a computer worm to take his armour off the grid she couldn't have gotten her hands on it.

Honestly that didn't bother me. Like every 9 months a comic references how some villain or government agency got its hand on Iron Man tech of some sort by some method either online or in a black market deal. I'm positive most writers just aren't really aware of the whole worm. Chalk it up to Marvel's "continuity" working the way it often does, "When it's inconvenient? Chuck it out." I don't think this was Bendis' normal complete disregard for continuity like he normally does.

The current climate is what saw Riri crash and burn so hard on Invincible Iron Man that Bendis was forced to undo all his mistakes, bringing back Tony Stark and Rhodey, before he left Marvel for good. If anything, Riri's failure is the only reason that Infamous Iron Man ended, Marvel pulled the plug on both books at the same time and crammed everything together in the lead up to Iron Man #600. A shame really, seeing Doom weighed down by a lacklustre character like Riri; a little more time and Doom could've quite easily supplanted Riri as the de facto Iron Man in Tony Stark's absence.

I offer the storyline was always in pursuit of bringing Tony and secretly Rhodey back. From the very get go people were beginning the search for Stark and the storyline had to pay off eventually. By this time Bendis knew he was seriously thinking about working at DC, and so the way he was planning it had Invincible and Infamous ending at the same time. Also, they had to end at the same time because it would be really weird to just have regular Iron Man and Doctor Doom Iron Man operating at the same time oblivious of one another. Nobody would want to write that story and nobody wants to see Doom move his fixation from Reed to someone less intelligent than Reed.

This is sorta like Brubaker with Captain America post Fallen Son. He knew in exactly two years Cap would be back in the cowl and Barnes would be out of a job. Marvel tries to plan these things out far in advance. Tries. Doesn't always work, but they at least try. And in this case it's just a planned thing.

As for the rushed crammed together ending? That's a Bendis hallmark of how he ends things. He frontloads his ideas and then drops them at the end.

Especially when Riri never took the Iron Man legacy, was being mentored by AI Tony, and the book was just as much about that relationship as it was about Riri. In this debate I can’t help wonder what the reaction would have been if the kid had been an Iron Lad / Iron Boy type character. I am reasonably sure nobody would have raised an eyebrow. It certainly wouldn’t have been brought up in a discussion about WCA.

Yeah, I mentioned before how Stark wasn't actually replaced. The entire metaphor of him dying or being banished or whatever was lost because he never actually left. The very next issue a holograph that behaved and thought just like him showed up.

Marvel's PR is in 100% support of every book they publish. If they didn't believe in a book, they wouldn't publish it in the first place.

And Bendis had plenty of ideas of what to do with Riri. If #600 wasn't a satisfying end to his run, it's primarily due to the fact that it was never meant to be the end.

Had Bendis stayed with Marvel, he would've stayed on Iron Man so his original plans for #600 would have been about beginning new storylines rather than hastily wrapping them up.

Who knows where Bendis would have taken Riri had he stayed on but it's certain that he had plans in mind.

I get the feeling Bendis wasn't looking to stick around. If he weren't leaving Marvel he'd probably ask to do Defenders or something and leave Waid to handle Riri. Or maybe just start rewriting Tony with Riri as a sort of sidekick.

Of the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of comics that they've published over the decades I'm sure there's naturally some that they've believed in more than others but when you're talking about the direction of a main title, they're not going ahead with a direction that the writers and editors collectively haven't agreed on and don't believe in.

Whatever is going on in a book like Iron Man or The Hulk or Daredevil, it's because everyone involved is on board with it. Whatever reception it gets, the belief that it was a story worth telling was behind it.

That would actually be pretty hilarious if Bendis walked up to the editor and the editor said, "Look. We at Marvel don't believe in this. But you got us over a barrel. We will push to publishing." And then the cackling evil laughter of Bendis rang throughout the halls, sending shudders throughout the office staff who knew it meant another terrible book was forced upon them.

[The Dying Detective]

Honestly that didn't bother me. Like every 9 months a comic references how some villain or government agency got its hand on Iron Man tech of some sort by some method either online or in a black market deal. I'm positive most writers just aren't really aware of the whole worm. Chalk it up to Marvel's "continuity" working the way it often does, "When it's inconvenient? Chuck it out." I don't think this was Bendis' normal complete disregard for continuity like he normally does.

If you are saying that this happened before even after Iron Man supposedly took his armour of the grid then whether Bendis was disregarding continuity it really doesn't matter it's kind of the norm anyway in comics I think no one take continuity seriously anymore.

[ed2962]

Of the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of comics that they've published over the decades I'm sure there's naturally some that they've believed in more than others but when you're talking about the direction of a main title, they're not going ahead with a direction that the writers and editors collectively haven't agreed on and don't believe in.

Whatever is going on in a book like Iron Man or The Hulk or Daredevil, it's because everyone involved is on board with it. Whatever reception it gets, the belief that it was a story worth telling was behind it.

I was thinking more in the case of certain half thought out tie-ins to events that aren't really about augmenting the main story, but are really there to keep the retailer from ordering more of another company's books. Titles that are obviously about confusing the consumers. Obvious rip-offs...

[ed2962]

The part where it really all clicked for me that her concept and execution wasn't working was during a flashback at a party where her parents were treating her like Damian the anti-christ, then flipping back to the present where she was lock, stock, and barrel ready to at least try being in the mold of a hero. Which was fine, but it meant there was quite a bit of issue real estate devoted to how unsure everybody was of Riri as a developing person. I mean, she just didn't really have any moment where she talked or behaved in a way which suggested she didn't care for heroic methods and would've been fine employing less than heroic methods. Instead she was always just pretty much heroic if not just a bit lonely and cocky.


I'm always ready to throw Bendis under a bus, but Marvel works as a collaborative effort. Bendis had the idea and Marvel felt it fit with the oncoming deaths of Rhodes and Stark. Marvel at this point had to know what sort of backlash they were inviting since it wasn't like some people weren't vocally up in arms with Sam Wilson as Captain America or Jane Foster as Thor. They knew there would be a subsection of comic fans who didn't want to really see black people or females take over traditionally white male roles. They expected it with Riri, but felt it wouldn't be enough of a negative to ask Bendis to change Riri around.


Honestly that didn't bother me. Like every 9 months a comic references how some villain or government agency got its hand on Iron Man tech of some sort by some method either online or in a black market deal. I'm positive most writers just aren't really aware of the whole worm. Chalk it up to Marvel's "continuity" working the way it often does, "When it's inconvenient? Chuck it out." I don't think this was Bendis' normal complete disregard for continuity like he normally does.


I offer the storyline was always in pursuit of bringing Tony and secretly Rhodey back. From the very get go people were beginning the search for Stark and the storyline had to pay off eventually. By this time Bendis knew he was seriously thinking about working at DC, and so the way he was planning it had Invincible and Infamous ending at the same time. Also, they had to end at the same time because it would be really weird to just have regular Iron Man and Doctor Doom Iron Man operating at the same time oblivious of one another. Nobody would want to write that story and nobody wants to see Doom move his fixation from Reed to someone less intelligent than Reed.

This is sorta like Brubaker with Captain America post Fallen Son. He knew in exactly two years Cap would be back in the cowl and Barnes would be out of a job. Marvel tries to plan these things out far in advance. Tries. Doesn't always work, but they at least try. And in this case it's just a planned thing.

As for the rushed crammed together ending? That's a Bendis hallmark of how he ends things. He frontloads his ideas and then drops them at the end.


Yeah, I mentioned before how Stark wasn't actually replaced. The entire metaphor of him dying or being banished or whatever was lost because he never actually left. The very next issue a holograph that behaved and thought just like him showed up.


I get the feeling Bendis wasn't looking to stick around. If he weren't leaving Marvel he'd probably ask to do Defenders or something and leave Waid to handle Riri. Or maybe just start rewriting Tony with Riri as a sort of sidekick.




That would actually be pretty hilarious if Bendis walked up to the editor and the editor said, "Look. We at Marvel don't believe in this. But you got us over a barrel. We will push to publishing." And then the cackling evil laughter of Bendis rang throughout the halls, sending shudders throughout the office staff who knew it meant another terrible book was forced upon them.

I don't think that happens, but I do think there's been times where management was like, "Eh, just stick Wolverine in it. It doesn't matter if it's good or not, those jerks will buy it regardless."

[Digifiend]

Marvel's PR is in 100% support of every book they publish. If they didn't believe in a book, they wouldn't publish it in the first place.

And Bendis had plenty of ideas of what to do with Riri. If #600 wasn't a satisfying end to his run, it's primarily due to the fact that it was never meant to be the end.

Had Bendis stayed with Marvel, he would've stayed on Iron Man so his original plans for #600 would have been about beginning new storylines rather than hastily wrapping them up.

Who knows where Bendis would have taken Riri had he stayed on but it's certain that he had plans in mind.

Champions would've probably been different too, she may not even have joined (especially since she was joining a different team with Miles, Leonardo's SHIELD). She was probably put there because she was getting removed from Iron Man owing to the creative team change.

[Skedatz]

I don't think that happens, but I do think there's been times where management was like, "Eh, just stick Wolverine in it. It doesn't matter if it's good or not, those jerks will buy it regardless."

I don't think it was, "...those jerks will buy it regardless," so much as, "...and those idiots will buy it because it has Wolverine."

[Tiamatty]

The current climate is what saw Riri crash and burn so hard on Invincible Iron Man that Bendis was forced to undo all his mistakes, bringing back Tony Stark and Rhodey, before he left Marvel for good. If anything, Riri's failure is the only reason that Infamous Iron Man ended, Marvel pulled the plug on both books at the same time and crammed everything together in the lead up to Iron Man #600. A shame really, seeing Doom weighed down by a lacklustre character like Riri; a little more time and Doom could've quite easily supplanted Riri as the de facto Iron Man in Tony Stark's absence.

jeezcomeon (2).jpg

She didn't "crash and burn." She didn't sell as well as Tony, but she still sold well. ~35 000 on a consistent basis is not something to sneeze at. Stark was brought back because Stark was always going to be brought back, anyone who thought Riri would be taking his place permanently is too stupid to know how to put on pants, and he was brought back when he was because Bendis was leaving Marvel. He'd decided to leave, so he put the toys back more-or-less where he found them. He wasn't "forced" to undo anything. Hell, the only thing he actually un-did was Rhodey's death, and even that was almost certainly his choice, rather than something forced on him.

Riri did well. Invincible Iron Man remained a commercially successful series while she was the main protagonist of the comic. Your unreasoning hatred of her makes you want to paint her as Marvel's Greatest Failure, you want to believe she bombed hard and that no one was reading the comic and that she has no fans, but you are objectively goddamn wrong. You are objectively wrong about her "crashing and burning." The numbers we can see prove you're wrong. And there's other numbers we can't see, so she very well may have been even more successful outside the direct market. Online sales, trades in book stores, libraries - comics are doing well in those places, and it's entirely possible that Riri enjoyed even greater success through those non-traditional markets than she did in the direct market.

Invincible Iron Man, with Riri Williams as the protagonist, had solid and consistent sales, and nothing you say will ever change that fact, and your insistence otherwise is simply denying reality in favour of a pre-constructed worldview.

[Sutekh]

She didn't "crash and burn." [SNIP] Stark was brought back because Stark was always going to be brought back, anyone who thought Riri would be taking his place permanently is too stupid to know how to put on pants,

So true. People freaked that Sam Wilson had the shield and name of Captain America (and that Captain America was all 'hail Hydra'). People freaked that Otto Octavius was Spider-Man. People freaked that Jane Foster was Thor. And all of it is temporary, because it's a serial medium and everyone has to be reset to factory standards by the end of the arc.

[Tiamatty]

So true. People freaked that Sam Wilson had the shield and name of Captain America (and that Captain America was all 'hail Hydra'). People freaked that Otto Octavius was Spider-Man. People freaked that Jane Foster was Thor. And all of it is temporary, because it's a serial medium and everyone has to be reset to factory standards by the end of the arc.

Which is honestly my biggest problem with Big Two superhero comics. I would love more permanent changes, but we're not allowed to get them, because everything always needs to be returned back to an old status quo.