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  1. #46
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that, but the way it was written still seemed to come off more favorably in Kate's favor and her "side" then it did Bruce in my opinion.

    Especially when it came to the Batfamily meeting that happened in the aftermath.
    Well. Unless you actually want to kick Kate out of the family (in which case...Damian and Jason have to go too), I think readers need to be okay with what she did, or at least okay enough that they don't leave.

    Perhaps because I don't believe in the "no kill rule", at least when it comes to self defense, I'm not as bothered here, because many of the objections to Bruce's policy raised are my own - but I also think that Bruce is not shown to be wrong in not wanting to kill. Tim definitely agrees with him, and Dick leans heavily in that way. Even Babs doesn't make an argument against the no-kill rule, she just says that as an adult, Bruce has to treat Kate as another adult.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well. Unless you actually want to kick Kate out of the family (in which case...Damian and Jason have to go too), I think readers need to be okay with what she did, or at least okay enough that they don't leave.

    Perhaps because I don't believe in the "no kill rule", at least when it comes to self defense, I'm not as bothered here, because many of the objections to Bruce's policy raised are my own - but I also think that Bruce is not shown to be wrong in not wanting to kill. Tim definitely agrees with him, and Dick leans heavily in that way. Even Babs doesn't make an argument against the no-kill rule, she just says that as an adult, Bruce has to treat Kate as another adult.
    I just don't feel like Tynion was very even-handed in depicting both sides of the issue, as I feel is usually the case when it comes to a conflict with Bruce and another member of the team in this book, or at the very least he makes more convincing arguments against him then for him.

  3. #48
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I just don't feel like Tynion was very even-handed in depicting both sides of the issue, as I feel is usually the case when it comes to a conflict with Bruce and another member of the team in this book, or at the very least he makes more convincing arguments against him then for him.
    Hmm. I think the biggest issue I have with Fall of the Batmen and how it relates to Kate is that it feels rushed. I still think that the last two arcs have been compressed from at least two additional arcs bringing Tynion's run to 1000, so I think that the groundwork for Kate killing Clayface and Bruce's reaction to it were also truncated. Given that, if you look at the run as it is, I would agree that Batman doesn't have a strong enough argument against Kate. The biggest issue is that there's really nothing Tim or Bruce suggest that could have solved the issue of Clayface, so they're basically just saying "Kate, you shouldn't have killed Basil," but not what she should or even could have done instead. Sorry, but "We look for another way" doesn't have much weight if "another way" is never offered.

    So I sort of agree, but I'm still pretty okay with how everything went down.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Hmm. I think the biggest issue I have with Fall of the Batmen and how it relates to Kate is that it feels rushed. I still think that the last two arcs have been compressed from at least two additional arcs bringing Tynion's run to 1000, so I think that the groundwork for Kate killing Clayface and Bruce's reaction to it were also truncated. Given that, if you look at the run as it is, I would agree that Batman doesn't have a strong enough argument against Kate. The biggest issue is that there's really nothing Tim or Bruce suggest that could have solved the issue of Clayface, so they're basically just saying "Kate, you shouldn't have killed Basil," but not what she should or even could have done instead. Sorry, but "We look for another way" doesn't have much weight if "another way" is never offered.

    So I sort of agree, but I'm still pretty okay with how everything went down.
    Of course, as I've brought up several times, there were a plethora of things Bruce could have done, but he didn't because it would have broken Tynion's story.

    As Tynion's runs closes, I've re-evaluated several arcs, for better or worse. My opinion that 'Fall of the Batmen' is by far the worst arc has not changed at all.

  5. #50
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Of course, as I've brought up several times, there were a plethora of things Bruce could have done, but he didn't because it would have broken Tynion's story.

    As Tynion's runs closes, I've re-evaluated several arcs, for better or worse. My opinion that 'Fall of the Batmen' is by far the worst arc has not changed at all.
    Ooooh, what are those things? I am not great with coming up with plots.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ooooh, what are those things? I am not great with coming up with plots.
    It's stuff like calling in the Green Lanterns/Justice League. I don't really buy that either would have worked due to the time constraints.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Ooooh, what are those things? I am not great with coming up with plots.
    Call Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz to temporarily contain him, call Superman to freeze him, call Cyborg to boom tube him to a remote location so he wasn't an immediate threat and calling any number of other heroes he regularly works with or is associated with to deal with him non-lethally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    It's stuff like calling in the Green Lanterns/Justice League. I don't really buy that either would have worked due to the time constraints.
    Super speed and boom tubes.

    And with how often they're seen in down time, it's ridiculous to think they'd all be busy. They certainly weren't when Batman needed them all to handle Gotham.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    And with how often they're seen in down time, it's ridiculous to think they'd all be busy. They certainly weren't when Batman needed them all to handle Gotham.
    From an in-story perspective, the fact that they didn't show up is pretty clear evidence that they were.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    From an in-story perspective, the fact that they didn't show up is pretty clear evidence that they were.
    Evidence would have been if we actually saw Batman try to call them. Of course even if he had done that, it'd just be one more thing in the pile of "Things I don't buy" in that arc.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Evidence would have been if we actually saw Batman try to call them. Of course even if he had done that, it'd just be one more thing in the pile of "Things I don't buy" in that arc.
    He didn't call them because he knew they were busy.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  11. #56
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Call Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz to temporarily contain him, call Superman to freeze him, call Cyborg to boom tube him to a remote location so he wasn't an immediate threat and calling any number of other heroes he regularly works with or is associated with to deal with him non-lethally.

    Super speed and boom tubes.

    And with how often they're seen in down time, it's ridiculous to think they'd all be busy. They certainly weren't when Batman needed them all to handle Gotham.
    Hmmm. Maybe it's because I don't like the whole Justice League concept (because I still firmly believe that Batman should NOT exist in a world where Superman is an effective superhero), but I'm not a fan of crossovers to solve problems - and to be consistent, I didn't like it in Snyder's Endgame or King's I Am Gotham, either. I think if you're writing a Batman/Batfam story, you should mostly just write about them solving their own problems. It feels a bit like the "hacker fu" that people like to accuse Tim Drake writers of relying too much on. (I also dislike Snyder's habit of using "secret fake science" to solve his problems.)

    Have other writers pulled in the League to solve Batman problems in the past? I remember liking No Man's Land because Superman showed up, but he couldn't fix the problems.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  12. #57
    Stuck in Limbo again Red obin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedQueen View Post
    My eyes are drawn to the fact that Otto Schmidt is drawing Nightwing because hell yes. Glad he's doing some bat stuff.


    Catwoman looks good. Will definitely give it a go especially with Jones' art.
    I believe that cover is actually a placeholder, as the solicitation says Schmidt but thats a Fernandez work signed 2016. However, the point remains that Schmidt will be great.

    Agreed wholeheartedly on Catwoman and Jones.
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  13. #58
    God Body DIVINITY's Avatar
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    Adventures of Super Sons
    Batman
    Catwoman
    Deathstroke
    Detective Comics
    Red Hood/Red Hood Annual
    Last edited by DIVINITY; 05-22-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    #MagnetoWasRight

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Eto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Attachment 66154
    More Signal!
    The Cringe tho

  15. #60
    Incredible Member Eto's Avatar
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    - RED HOOD and The Outlaws
    - Deathstroke
    - Adventures Of Super Sons
    Still bummed were not getting the final issue of CotN.

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