Why did the "Martha" line fail?

[Forseti]

That's all well and good, but it takes more skill than Goyer and Snyder can bring to the table to make that work. I don't judge film makers by their intentions, but by their results.

[Zero Hunter]

I agree with other that if he would have just said "he had my mother" the scene would have been fine. You could have still gotten the same effect. If they really wanted to tie it together they could have just gone with after Batman rescued her he could have said "your fine now miss" and she could have said "just call me Martha" therby giving you the both moms are named Martha bit without it being so cheesy.

[Michael Watkins]

I see it as a moment of desperation on Superman's part...a Hail Mary play. As has been pointed out in a hilarious, but on-target meme, Batman had no idea who "Mom" was from Superman's perspective. Heck, you aren't wrong to point out that Batman wouldn't know who "Martha" (Kent) was either. Superman/Clark probably knew all this as well, but this was the only, desperate gambit he had to save his mother's life. From Clark's perspective, it looked like his death was imminent, and if he died, nobody else would be able to save his mother...except *maybe* Batman. Yes, it was a very, very slim hope, but it was also probably the only one Clark figured he had (if anybody could figure it out, it would be the world's greatest detective). It was an act of desperation to save one of the people he loved most, however unlikely that it seemed that it would work. I think that as people, we can relate to that sense of desperation.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I can't. And in no reality does Superman's act of desperation result in Batman finding and saving a complete stranger. It was just bad writing. No idea why you are defending it. Clark would not refer to her as Martha. Bruce wouldn't infer that Martha was Superman's mother. Desperation doesn't suddenly make a farm boy refer to his mother by her first name. It's not like he gave her full name. That might have made sense. But Batman wouldn't have instantly deduced that she was the mother of the guy he was killing.

[bobellis75]

The intent of the line worked, I guess....but the execution to get there...and the execution of the actual line, didn't.

If I was about to die in this situation, I wouldn't tell someone "Save Cheryl" (my mom's name). I'd be like "Let me go...I gotta save my mom".

I get where Snyder and the team were going with this...it just came off as a little bit hokey, because it was forced....but the intent...what he was trying to do....that worked. He was trying to humanize Superman. "This guy's got a mother...a father...he's not so different from me." I think they hit the audience over the head with it, with it being Martha. I think Bruce could've snapped out of it whether Clark's mom was named Martha or Sara or whatever.

They had Lois run up and explain Martha was his mother. If she's in the vicinity she could have had a line that drove home the point that Clark was just like everyone else...

I dunno. I'm not down on it like some people...there are people who make the joke "Our mom's have the same name! Let's be pals!" and that's not what that line was about at all.

[master of read]

i'm glad someone brought it up.

say that the "save martha" line didn't work the way it did and bats killed supes. under the assumption that bruce didn't know clark's identity, which is weird considering that both lois and lex were able to do so, how was batman suppose to find out his civie identity, learn about his family, learn that his mother had been kidnapped, learned that it was lex who kidnapped her and find her location in such a small window? while this batman is pretty cool, he's not exactly the uber detective that other versions are.

but i agree with a lot of people here. i liked the idea of "save martha". it was just executed poorly.

[bobellis75]

The intent of the line worked, I guess....but the execution to get there...and the execution of the actual line, didn't.

If I was about to die in this situation, I wouldn't tell someone "Save Cheryl" (my mom's name). I'd be like "Let me go...I gotta save my mom".

I get where Snyder and the team were going with this...it just came off as a little bit hokey, because it was forced....but the intent...what he was trying to do....that worked. He was trying to humanize Superman. "This guy's got a mother...a father...he's not so different from me." I think they hit the audience over the head with it, with it being Martha. I think Bruce could've snapped out of it whether Clark's mom was named Martha or Sara or whatever.

They had Lois run up and explain Martha was his mother. If she's in the vicinity she could have had a line that drove home the point that Clark was just like everyone else...

I dunno. I'm not down on it like some people...there are people who make the joke "Our mom's have the same name! Let's be pals!" and that's not what that line was about at all.

Imagine in Civil War if Tony Stark said "Sonofabitch killed Maria"

Cap would've been like "Who?"

"MARIA!"

"Who?"

"My mom!!"

"Oh."
"Why'd you call her Maria? Weird, man."

[master of read]

if i did this scene............

i would still have them fight, with superman being far more reluctant to fight batman than he was in the movie, pulling his punches and not doing too far with his attacks. then we see bruce pull out his kryptonite weapons and they start to have a affect on him aside from the obvious ones. it would make him slightly delirious, muttering through out the fight "gotta save her. gotta save her." bruce notes this but doesn't stop him from fighting. he has superman dead to rights and prepares to shank him.

superman: kill me if you must but please........if you are as good as hero as you say.........please............save her....

batman: save who?

superman: my.........mother.......find her.........her name is kent........martha kent......

then batman stays his hand and staggers back.

batman: martha...........your mother..........too?

then have him have a flashback about his parents' death and finally sees that he's been wrong. thus ending the fight and then we have the rest of the movie.

but that's just my take on it.

[Buried Alien]

I can't. And in no reality does Superman's act of desperation result in Batman finding and saving a complete stranger.

And it wouldn't have. Even Batman would not have figured it out in time...or maybe even ever. Fortunately, Lois Lane showed up a moment later to clarify everything.

The point isn't whether or not Superman's desperation play would have worked. The chances of it working were infinitesimal at best, but that's one thing about Superman: if there's even the smallest iota of hope, Superman is going to swing for it.

It was just bad writing. No idea why you are defending it.

I'll hazard a wild guess and say I didn't think it was so bad.

Clark would not refer to her as Martha. Bruce wouldn't infer that Martha was Superman's mother. Desperation doesn't suddenly make a farm boy refer to his mother by her first name. It's not like he gave her full name. That might have made sense. But Batman wouldn't have instantly deduced that she was the mother of the guy he was killing.

Clark was *dying*. He didn't know if he had time to get another word out, so he went with the words he thought would work best. I don't trust that a man facing imminent death, with the knowledge that his loved ones were also in imminent danger, would have the presence of mind to pick words with precision, especially when every second counted.

But, as Flash said, "Lois was the key." I don't think Barry meant it in that context when he appeared briefly earlier in the movie, but it did fit the situation.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

if i did this scene............

i would still have them fight, with superman being far more reluctant to fight batman than he was in the movie, pulling his punches and not doing too far with his attacks. then we see bruce pull out his kryptonite weapons and they start to have a affect on him aside from the obvious ones. it would make him slightly delirious, muttering through out the fight "gotta save her. gotta save her." bruce notes this but doesn't stop him from fighting. he has superman dead to rights and prepares to shank him.

superman: kill me if you must but please........if you are as good as hero as you say.........please............save her....

batman: save who?

superman: my.........mother.......find her.........her name is kent........martha kent......

then batman stays his hand and staggers back.

batman: martha...........your mother..........too?

then have him have a flashback about his parents' death and finally sees that he's been wrong. thus ending the fight and then we have the rest of the movie.

but that's just my take on it.

That's a lot of words to say for a man at the edge of death, especially because at that point, I doubt Batman would let Superman get another word in. He *barely* had enough time for "save Martha."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[MindofShadow]

It could have also failed just because it was a poop cherry on a shit sundae.

People waiting their whole lives for this fight on the big screen. Build up to it was passable at best. Their reasoning for fighting was dumb. The fight itself was lackluster, and they ended it with a coincidence about their mother's names.


It was just... too much. They needed a better reason to fight. They needed a better choreographed fight. And they needed a better way to end it.

But, at least we got that dope warehouse scene afterwards lol

[master of read]

that's just how i would've done if that's what they were going for, with the whole "martha" bit.

if asking how i could've done it better, i'd need more time.

[Buried Alien]

that's just how i would've done if that's what they were going for, with the whole "martha" bit.

if asking how i could've done it better, i'd need more time.

I think your lines would have worked fine in a comic book, where the amount of time needed to get words out isn't really relevant. A movie, of course, is different.

Just one of the challenges in telling these story across different media.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Nate Grey]

Superman began the fight trying to reason with Bruce, not Batman...if its a well known fact that Bruce Wayne is the sole heir of the Wayne dynasty, its also a well known fact the names of his parents are Thomas and Martha, as well as how they died. Its not a leap to believe that the death of both parents can lead to unresolved conflict, namely dressing up as a Bat. So I took Superman using this to his advantage, tapping into that trauma and the coincidence of their mothers sharing the same name, to snap Bruce out of it. Actually rescuing Martha was incidental (and frankly impossible if Batman skewered him anyway).

He didn't just say "Save Martha", he also said "you're letting him kill Martha." Is it a stretch for Clark to believe if Bruce could have stopped someone from killing his mom he would have? To sledge hammer home that point they intercut that scene with flashbacks of preteen Bruce at Martha Wayne's grave and also back to the night she was murdered.

It was a hail mary of tapping into Bruce's psyche (psychosis?), giving the wording. Otherwise I find it very implausible someone would trust their own murderer to save his mother, let alone only giving him a name to go by.

[master of read]

I think your lines would have worked fine in a comic book, where the amount of time needed to get words out isn't really relevant. A movie, of course, is different.

Just one of the challenges in telling these story across different media.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

still, like i said, i like the idea. it was just executed poorly.

[Carabas]

Superman began the fight trying to reason with Bruce, not Batman...if its a well known fact that Bruce Wayne is the sole heir of the Wayne dynasty, its also a well known fact the names of his parents are Thomas and Martha, as well as how they died. Its not a leap to believe that the death of both parents can lead to unresolved conflict, namely dressing up as a Bat. So I took Superman using this to his advantage, tapping into that trauma and the coincidence of their mothers sharing the same name, to snap Bruce out of it. Actually rescuing Martha was incidental (and frankly impossible if Batman skewered him anyway).

Snyder!Supes has not given any signs of being even remotely capable of that kind of strategy.