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  1. #16
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    I say keep them in limbo until a writer can actually make them interesting. Outside of Kon, Con, Bart and Cass Cain. I find the rest to be boring. Speaking for myself, of course.
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I can’t relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    I liked those characters. Even when they grew up. I liked how they took a darker turn, and everything seemed lost, then a tragedy after another, only to end on a more lighthearted note. Cassandra finally taking a hold of her destiny, Tim coming to terms with the kind of hero he is. Kon growing up, bart becoming more than anyone ever thought he would. Steph maturing, becoming what she always wanted to be, Cass finally finding her way back to the family.

    They were in a good place, or about to get there. Then their origins got destroyed, their personalities changed to something anyone that ever read the characters would find disgusting. I dont see how you think this generation got more, sounds to me like they got the shaft and DC was just trying to cash in on their previous established fanbase with something completely different.
    We even have a character that literally got the mantle outright retconned from him to make room for another character heavily featured in films and adaptations.
    I’m not sure your remembering how bad Teen Titans was with those characters before the New 52, and Cass was already shuffled to the side before the New 52. It’s cool that you like those characters though. Nothing wrong with that.

    They got more, because they got more. What they got might not have worked out, but they weren’t kicked to the curb like so many others. No they were actually invested in and were given a showcase they wanted to launch a line around, despite that they really didn’t fit anymore.
    And Tim only ever being Red Robin wasn’t even done for Damian, but remember they had them create the Teen Titans. Retconning that from other characters history and giving that to them.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-22-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  3. #18
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    In the last year i started reading rebirth, then went back to the pre flashpoint books, then came back for the new 52 because i wanted to see if it was really that bad. And it was.

    After watching them grow across 10-20 years of comics i liked them. I really liked early Kon but thought Late Kon was fitting, the dude simply matured, too many things happened, he even died a hero. Becoming more somber after that is only natural. I liked Tim, He became a little crazy after losing his father, but he was still very interesting and complex. I liked Steph after her rejection and death, she also became a bit of a loon, until she found her center when she became batgirl. Cassandra struggled a lot with her lineage, until she found her own power, that worked well, a storyline about a character finding out that the power was in them the whole time is a timeless classic that is meant to inspire us.


    Also you still do not get just how damaging to a character it is to change their personality, origin, etc.
    Itd be like making Dick Grayson into the comic relief. Or making jason into a heel that betrays batman at every turn. It is a fundamental departure from what made the core of the character and it is worse than just sticking them in limbo.

    Do you really think the new 52 titans had any chance of being successful?

  4. #19
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    I get how damaging that can be, but the intent wasn’t to ruin them. They didn’t set out to ruin them. Again they wanted them to be “the” Teen Titans and launch a line around them, but it crashed in burned. Where others were actually dumped, history and all, and trully disposed of. With the Titans specifically most of the founding generation were discarded, and their history and the accomplishment of creating the Teen Titans was given to Tim and his generation.

    And no I didn’t think they had any chance to be successful. I already thought they were played out as Teen Titans, and now those characters didn’t even fit anymore. Which created a lot of problems. Among other things. But that’s my opinion.

    Nevertheless though, regardless of my opinion, DC went with them. Robbing others of their history and booting most of the actual founding Titan generation in the process. And as for Damian, he died, and in actuality they held off on trying to build the next generation with him. Instead, again, they went with Tim and his generation. Unintentionally screwing them up in the process. Which sucks for those characters fans.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-22-2018 at 09:45 PM.

  5. #20
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    I don't like how Geoff or lobdell changed characters,both wiped out most of what ppl liked about those characters,even if Geoff wasn't a reboot.

    They should have kept the same history,just let time pass,comic slow time pass that is,and take them into new directions,not change them in ways a fan would say that's not how they are,that gets fans pissed and in the state many are in now

  6. #21
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    I remember back in the 2000, the young justice series, it was my favourite comic at the time. When DC ended that series and made them the next teen titans, they all were doomed. It was only a matter of time. I disliked the John's titans because if that. I thought at the time DC should have kept and developed the young justice brand. Today these characters would have had a home. The titans franchise belongs to Dick and his generation. It's unfortunate for Tim and his generation, it's clear they have no future at DC.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post

    Tim Drake was clearly sidelined to make room for Damian, there is just no other way to look at this. I dont know if it was PR, didio or any of the higher ups. But the character was assassinated in favor of the new Robin. Its amazing how many elements of the character got poached by others and a clear indication that the character became disposable. Dick, Jason, Duke, Harper.


    Rebirth brought a lot of it back, but it has felt so half assed. We are 2 years in and we still havent gotten any of them back, even Tim Drake is still being depicted as a naive tech guy, when that was never the character in the old continuity (or maybe only in the eyes of snyder).

    There's a lot of wrong here. Damian was introduced and became Robin well before New 52. If anything New 52 sidelined Damian a process which continues in the Batman books to this day. Snyder used him in about 9 issues most of which involved Tim and others. King has used him in 5 along with a reference or two. He was barely in New 52 Tec, definitely less than 5 issues and same goes for The Dark Knight. What Damian had was a 4 issue solo mini, a short lived 13 issue ongoing and a Batman team up book from where he vanished for 2 years because of his death. He was not in Batman Eternal, showed up in Batman and Robin Eternal near the end and has appeared in about 4 issues of Tynion's Tec which has focused on Tim, Steph and Cass. The difference between Damian and Tim is that Morrison and Tomasi have done a far better job with him in far less the number of issues than it took Tynion the primary supporter of the 90's crew. The Eternals were devoted to Cass and Steph's reintroductions while his Tec has continued with those characters along with heavy focus on Tim and Kate. But in about 130 issues Tynion has done virtually jacksquat with those guys. He resorts to nostalgia, surface level personalities, singular traits that entirely define these characters, making others look bad to prop certain characters and so on.Blaming Lobdell and establishment and another character whose doing well is easy but what about Tynion? He clearly was given the job of fixing them which he evidently wanted but where are the results? Those Eternal books in particular were just a waste of time.
    Its not Damian's fault Tim writers fail to get Tim even when they profess to love him and ultimately these problems trace back to Johns era Teen Titans anyway.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Who is that?
    Tim and Damian apparantely. But this line of thinking ignores the fact that Tim had 25 years to be heavily featured in films and adaptations before Damian was animated.

  9. #24
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    Unfortunately, it's been so long I don't have the link, but I believe Snyder said that at the start of New 52 Didio gave them complete freedom with the characters and to write them as they like. There are some rules that they must follow, like the 5 years rule and Barbara walking again, but I think Snyder said it's like writing the best fan fiction you can do.

    So Lobdell who wrote X-Men make Teen Titans X-Men, complete with The Culling which he already used in Age of Apocalypse.

    Judd Winnick made a super sexy Catwoman, Azzarello made his own universe with Wonder Woman, Snyder adds a new lore, and Morrison made an ultimate time-crossing Superman adventure.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 05-23-2018 at 12:20 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    There's a lot of wrong here. Damian was introduced and became Robin well before New 52. If anything New 52 sidelined Damian a process which continues in the Batman books to this day. Snyder used him in about 9 issues most of which involved Tim and others. King has used him in 5 along with a reference or two. He was barely in New 52 Tec, definitely less than 5 issues and same goes for The Dark Knight. What Damian had was a 4 issue solo mini, a short lived 13 issue ongoing and a Batman team up book from where he vanished for 2 years because of his death. He was not in Batman Eternal, showed up in Batman and Robin Eternal near the end and has appeared in about 4 issues of Tynion's Tec which has focused on Tim, Steph and Cass. The difference between Damian and Tim is that Morrison and Tomasi have done a far better job with him in far less the number of issues than it took Tynion the primary supporter of the 90's crew. The Eternals were devoted to Cass and Steph's reintroductions while his Tec has continued with those characters along with heavy focus on Tim and Kate. But in about 130 issues Tynion has done virtually jacksquat with those guys. He resorts to nostalgia, surface level personalities, singular traits that entirely define these characters, making others look bad to prop certain characters and so on.Blaming Lobdell and establishment and another character whose doing well is easy but what about Tynion? He clearly was given the job of fixing them which he evidently wanted but where are the results? Those Eternal books in particular were just a waste of time.
    Its not Damian's fault Tim writers fail to get Tim even when they profess to love him and ultimately these problems trace back to Johns era Teen Titans anyway.
    Thank you so much for this. Some fans forget that Damian hasn't been under the Bat office for a long tie and that Tim is pretty much Robin in Tec.

    Lets call out writer's and the company for mishandling characters rather than trying to scapegoat characters.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    They wanted the YJ generation to be THE young hero generation in the New 52. They removed Dick's Titans history and pretty much erased or sidelined his entire generation of characters to make room for Tim's generation to be the founding Titans members. Dick's generation got squeezed out of continuity because there wasn't room for all of them when they were trying to deage and write younger versions of the main DC heroes. It was the New 52 so most creative teams were given a bad situation to work with, but Lobdell's incredibly poor writing and voices for most of his characters was inexcusable. I'd still give him most of the blame.

    Now that Dick's generation is back in continuity, and DC is trying to flesh out Damian's generation more, it is Tim's generation that is getting hurt now in Rebirth. They still refuse to write Dick's generation like actual adults so that made them sideline Tim's generation so they don't have two generations of characters basically doing and acting the same in their series. The problem is that DC can't juggle all of their different generation of characters at once so one group seems to always get hurt.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    There's a lot of wrong here. Damian was introduced and became Robin well before New 52. If anything New 52 sidelined Damian a process which continues in the Batman books to this day. Snyder used him in about 9 issues most of which involved Tim and others. King has used him in 5 along with a reference or two. He was barely in New 52 Tec, definitely less than 5 issues and same goes for The Dark Knight. What Damian had was a 4 issue solo mini, a short lived 13 issue ongoing and a Batman team up book from where he vanished for 2 years because of his death. He was not in Batman Eternal, showed up in Batman and Robin Eternal near the end and has appeared in about 4 issues of Tynion's Tec which has focused on Tim, Steph and Cass. The difference between Damian and Tim is that Morrison and Tomasi have done a far better job with him in far less the number of issues than it took Tynion the primary supporter of the 90's crew. The Eternals were devoted to Cass and Steph's reintroductions while his Tec has continued with those characters along with heavy focus on Tim and Kate. But in about 130 issues Tynion has done virtually jacksquat with those guys. He resorts to nostalgia, surface level personalities, singular traits that entirely define these characters, making others look bad to prop certain characters and so on.Blaming Lobdell and establishment and another character whose doing well is easy but what about Tynion? He clearly was given the job of fixing them which he evidently wanted but where are the results? Those Eternal books in particular were just a waste of time.
    Its not Damian's fault Tim writers fail to get Tim even when they profess to love him and ultimately these problems trace back to Johns era Teen Titans anyway.
    All absolutely right!
    My opinion is that Damian should never have become Robin permanently for several reasons, Morrison himself was aware of it.
    We are now in a situation where the main authors have difficulty managing the dynamic Batman / Robin which is a classic at the base of the DC universe.
    Snyder does not even try it while King, cunningly, makes Damian ineteract with Dick.
    In fact, Morrison predicted that Damian was Dick's and not Bruce's Robin, immediately understanding the difficulties of this choice, but of course Dick could not remain in the role of Batman for long.
    Conversely, the dynamic Batman (Bruce) / Robin (Tim) worked great for 20 years and did not need a change, but now the decision was taken.
    Tim Drake, therefore, was forced to leave a role that played perfectly and was driven to grow, and here writers come into play. Yost and Nicieza had succeeded in giving a purpose and a direction which the reboot abruptly interrupted.
    Lobdell in N52 and Tynion in Rebirth, as you said, have not been able to fix a character now adrift.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Some concepts simply don't work. DC having been trying to push Dick's generation for a long time, but they simply have been failing since NTT ended. They have been trying to push Tim's generation in n52, they failed. They tried again to push Damian's generation (well, not his exactly...) in rebirth again, they failed.

    I know fans love to play the blame game and pointing fingers, but don't throw rocks when your house is made of glass. Each generation has their time of success, but none of them were able to keep it and it's not because DC purposely trying to "scapegoat" their own properties.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    Connor Hawke. No idea to be honest, if i had to take a stab at it, they didnt want him to upstage Oliver, also hawke aged him.
    Connor wasn't really YJ Generation he was about 4-5 years older.

    I think them big problem with him was that they aged Olli massivly down with the reboot, so he was in his iirc mid to late 20s (I guess to match the TV series). There was really not possibility that he could have a 20 year old son.
    Connors age was even pre flashpoint, hard to justify, but post flashpoint there was just no way.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Honestly, the decline of YJ began with some of John's more sketchy decisions when he wrote TT. Lobdell just continued what John's started and put his own unique spin on things.

    Tim(and most of the TT)got shafted because of Damian's popularity. Also, it seems like the current writers have no idea what they want to do with Tim.

    There is no reason for Kon not to exist with Jon. Jon and Kon having adventures together would be really cool and sell like crazy but writers don't seem to realize it yet.

    Bart is probably close to returning, there have been a lot of references to him in the Flash. Could he return after Flash War?

    Cassie...excluding the movie, the Wonder Woman franchise is kind of a mess right now. If writers were truly creative, Jason would be her father. That would justify all the focus he's getting right now.

    There have been rumors that YJ will be getting a relaunch because of the cartoon coming back but nothing is confirmed.

    Again Thank you. I really want Conner and Jon to have what Dick and Damian have. Best bros.

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