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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You mean Morrison who booted Tim from Robin, and reverted Jason into a balding red head. Ya, there were no complaints there...
    I was talking about the idea of a bigger Batfamily not how they were used individually. And Jason wasn't a member of the Batfamily before Morrison's run.

  2. #77
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    You mean how Dick and Damian were the only ones who had roles in his run while the rest were extras? Yeah, he handled them very well.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    What I learned from DC is they need to do a really specific targeting, on top of making good stories.

    DC has to push them, but the character has to be right and the audience has to be right.

    New 52 for example, pushed the Young Justice generation from the comics for the cartoon audience and they get the characters wrong
    Rebirth is pushing the Titans generation, but the book got the team purpose wrong
    Rebirth is also pushing the Teen Titans cartoon generation, but the Robin is Damian based on their newest cartoon, even though most of the members are from Dick's generation.
    It's all wrong.

    Also just because someone watches or play DC's other media it doesn't mean they're interested in reading the comic.

    That's before counting all the fans who grew up in comics, whatever generation they were, but stopped reading comics once they become adults or after DC disappointed them many times, so the audience is already dwindling.

    That's also before counting DC's own bias, which is prioritizing Batman and his generation, meaning whichever generation they want to feature, there's always that ceiling.

    That's before DC selecting writers that has no or limited understanding of the characters and why they are liked.

    Point is DC tries to please all fronts at once, looking at it more from profit perspective and not because they care about the characters. So it becomes a jumbled mess.

  4. #79
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The idea of having multiple generations of characters who all have the same basic gimmick/power sets with little variations is kind of boring. As is the idea of turning every major property into a team book (extended families for everybody!) or making sure every team has a Bat-person, a speedster, an Atlantean, a lasso twirling Amazon, a Kryptonian, a GL, an archer, etc. Yes, these are all different characters, but the differences are not as notable as people make them out to be. Not enough to make up for for the monotony in visuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1) the number of sidekicks isn't the issue. Grant Morrison made a large Batfamily work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You mean Morrison who booted Tim from Robin, and reverted Jason into a balding red head. Ya, there were no complaints there...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    You mean how Dick and Damian were the only ones who had roles in his run while the rest were extras? Yeah, he handled them very well.
    Morrison had a good setup, but Bruce, Dick and Damian were the clear leads and everyone else floated in and out as the plot demanded. That's not the same as what I imagine a lot of people in here are wanting (near equal plot importance and number of stories for everyone).

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The idea of having multiple generations of characters who all have the same basic gimmick/power sets with little variations is kind of boring. As is the idea of turning every major property into a team book (extended families for everybody!) or making sure every team has a Bat-person, a speedster, an Atlantean, a lasso twirling Amazon, a Kryptonian, a GL, an archer, etc. Yes, these are all different characters, but the differences are not as notable as people make them out to be. Not enough to make up for for the monotony in visuals.








    Morrison had a good setup, but Bruce, Dick and Damian were the clear leads and everyone else floated in and out as the plot demanded. That's not the same as what I imagine a lot of people in here are wanting (near equal plot importance and number of stories for everyone).
    I don't see it as any different then when Snyder wrote Batman he had characters he wanted to use and he used those characters. I would rather have a writer use a character when they have a legitimate plan for the character then use them because I want to see them in a book. People would be more angry when they had to read a bad story about Tim or another Batfamily member because they were added in just to meet fan expectations.

  6. #81
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I was talking about the idea of a bigger Batfamily not how they were used individually. And Jason wasn't a member of the Batfamily before Morrison's run.
    Heck, even Morrison acknowledged that Tim was a better partner for Bruce then Damian.

  7. #82
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    Morrisons run was great, no complains. I liked Damian, i liked Tim being forced to move on, i think they handled it well, especially Yost. I think Red Robin had a TON of potential there, i believe Niciezas direction for the character was perfect.

    What he said is true, Damian and Bruce cant work together, damian is an attention hog and a character that does thingsin his own particular way, they literally cant work together. There is a reason Damian had to die. Instead he is there hurting the mythos. Being largely ignored by batman writers that understand this. His contribution is displacing Robin as Batmans partner.

  8. #83
    Spectacular Member RoamingGnome8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    HOW??? Those toys are shelf warming everywhere including Toys R Us of all places. I am not seeing kids fight over the chance to read about them-I do see that with Moon Girl and Ms Marvel.

    If you got TT right in the FIRST place you would not need to restart nonstop. Why is there a battle to get this roster right? Let alone stories where teens are not being butchered in events. Tim's generation was being screwed over before New 52.

    Someone would have to explain to me if I was the head of WB let alone DC this-

    How do you ruin-Tim, Conner, Bart, Static, Jaime, Jason Rusch, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Meggan, Cassie and even the Jurdens/Perez Titans?

    After Tim, Bart, Jaime, Conner, Static, Jason & Cassandra account for almost over 500+ solo issues.

    Tim has almost 200 by himself. Conner has 100. Bart has 112.

    It will take Miles Morales, Sam Alexander (Not counting Rich's runs) & Ms Marvel at least 3 years to sniff 100.

    Explain how Cain & Brown became PITCH TOXIC and EDITED out of books.

    How is Miles and friends running buck wild over DC's teens in less time (7 years) than it took to build up Tim and his friends?

    Miles & friends have had to deal with every bigot, folks who don't read comics, entitlement fan and everything else to get to where they are.

    I wouldn't need Duke if my girls were not deem toxic to DC and if DC has invested in another black teen be it Static, Jason or Natasha Irons.

    IN fact why would anyone want to invest in Duke, New SUperman, Sideways or even Damian & Jon? History says they will ALL suffer the same fate.

    There is no excuse for poor writing and editing for what is now almost 20 years. And you got the better roster.
    You forget Marvel has just as much a history of dumping teen characters as much as DC does.
    Just ask fans of New X-Men/Generation Hope/Young Avengers/Avengers Academy/ect. Really only Runaways managed to come back, and that's only because of the Hulu show getting made.
    Pretty much getting invested in any teen character/group is a risk; because more than likely they'll be dropped/murdered/thrown in comic book limbo/replaced by other character.

    It's why I have trouble praising Marvel for their 'Legacy characters', because for years and years they've done the same thing DC did- label certain characters as 'pitch toxic', ruin certain characters, kill many of them all off in horrid event after horrid event, etc.
    Last edited by RoamingGnome8; 05-24-2018 at 03:20 PM.

  9. #84
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Shadow/Batman, Superman, Supersons, Deathstroke, B&R, Lil Gotham, Batman/ Turtles these are all titles where Damian and Bruce worked together perfectly.
    Morrison isn't God and his word isn't gospel just because he didn't write or even attempt to write Damian and Bruce doesn't mean they don't work.

    There is a reason Damian had to die but not working wasn't it.
    Damian didn't displace Robin that's a poisonous lie.

    At some point some fans have to learn to stop acting like entitled little brats and face the reality.

  10. #85
    Spectacular Member RoamingGnome8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Dick and Damian worked because they are the opposite of each others and their relationship being developed under the umbrella of Batman and Robin brand definitely helped giving them exposure.

    The same can't necessary be said about Jon and Conner. I do think they can co-exist, but that doesn't mean their hypothetical relationship can be successful and DC are missing out the chance.
    I think if you went with Conner's personality in the 90's, he would absolutely be the opposite of Jon.
    I don't think it's that difficult to make a compelling relationship between the two.

  11. #86
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    At some point some fans have to learn to stop acting like entitled little brats and face the reality.
    You seem to be projecting here.

  12. #87
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Shadow/Batman, Superman, Supersons, Deathstroke, B&R, Lil Gotham, Batman/ Turtles these are all titles where Damian and Bruce worked together perfectly.
    Morrison isn't God and his word isn't gospel just because he didn't write or even attempt to write Damian and Bruce doesn't mean they don't work.

    There is a reason Damian had to die but not working wasn't it.
    Damian didn't displace Robin that's a poisonous lie.

    At some point some fans have to learn to stop acting like entitled little brats and face the reality.
    He wrote Bruce and Damian as Batman and Robin in a few issues towards the end of his run, and they worked fine. He was planning on killing Damian from the very beginning and was more invested in the Dick/Damian dynamic, but Bruce and Damian still bounced off each other very well. He never really painted them as a unit that couldn't work. It just seemed like a less fun Bruce/Dick team because Bruce was more grouchy.

    Damian works well as a Robin when paired with either Dick as Batman or Bruce. Bruce and Dick in turn had a very different dynamic when they were Batman and Robin, which Damian contrasts with very well in response. I never thought what I'd read of Bruce and Tim as Batman and Robin was very interesting.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-24-2018 at 04:24 PM.

  13. #88
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Shadow/Batman, Superman, Supersons, Deathstroke, B&R, Lil Gotham, Batman/ Turtles these are all titles where Damian and Bruce worked together perfectly.
    Morrison isn't God and his word isn't gospel just because he didn't write or even attempt to write Damian and Bruce doesn't mean they don't work.

    There is a reason Damian had to die but not working wasn't it.
    Damian didn't displace Robin that's a poisonous lie.

    At some point some fans have to learn to stop acting like entitled little brats and face the reality.
    I'm not saying Bruce and Damian can't work together, at least when writers actually bother to feature them partnered together, but I don't think they have anywhere near the kind of featured partnership that Bruce and Tim had and I think if you pressed Damian on it he honestly preferred being paired with Dick as Batman.

    They were "The Best" after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    He wrote Bruce and Damian as Batman and Robin in a few issues towards the end of his run, and they worked fine. He was planning on killing Damian from the very beginning and was more invested in the Dick/Damian dynamic, but Bruce and Damian still bounced off each other very well. He never really painted them as a unit that couldn't work. It just seemed like a less fun Bruce/Dick team because Bruce was more grouchy.
    I remember Morrison mostly just writing them in conflict whenever they worked together.

    It was really Tomasi who seemed to try and make them work as some kind of Dynamic Duo.
    Damian works well as a Robin when paired with either Dick as Batman or Bruce. Bruce and Dick in turn had a very different dynamic when they were Batman and Robin, which Damian contrasts with very well in response. I never thought what I'd read of Bruce and Tim as Batman and Robin was very interesting.
    I think Bruce and Tim were interesting because they were able to modernize the classic Batman and Robin dynamic for a modern era, without needing Tim to be an exact Dick clone.

  14. #89
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    Morrisons run was great, no complains. I liked Damian, i liked Tim being forced to move on, i think they handled it well, especially Yost. I think Red Robin had a TON of potential there, i believe Niciezas direction for the character was perfect.

    What he said is true, Damian and Bruce cant work together, damian is an attention hog and a character that does thingsin his own particular way, they literally cant work together. There is a reason Damian had to die. Instead he is there hurting the mythos. Being largely ignored by batman writers that understand this. His contribution is displacing Robin as Batmans partner.
    Thats wrong actually. Damian actually brought the partnership back. With both his books being Batman and Robin books, focusing a lot on the partnership between him and his Batman. Tim was actually the Robin that wasn't really sold partnered with Batman, and was actually sold more as spin off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm not saying Bruce and Damian can't work together, at least when writers actually bother to feature them partnered together, but I don't think they have anywhere near the kind of featured partnership that Bruce and Tim had and I think if you pressed Damian on it he honestly preferred being paired with Dick as Batman.
    Except im pretty sure Tim and Bruce never actually shared a book where they were featured together. Shorty after Tim was introduced they started his mini's and then his eventual solo.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-24-2018 at 07:29 PM.

  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Thats wrong actually. Damian actually brought the partnership back. With both his books being Batman and Robin books, focusing a lot on the partnership between him and his Batman. Tim was actually the Robin wasn't really sold partnered with Batman, and was actually sold more as spin off.



    Except im pretty sure Tim and Bruce never actually shared a book where they were featured together. Shorty after Tim was introduced they start his mini's and then his eventual solo.
    Tim was definitely the first Robin to make "Robin" work as a standalone property with his ongoing, but from what I've read of that era there was still plenty of times where he and Bruce were together, played off one another, or had their relationship develop so there wasn't a need for a pure "Batman and Robin" book.

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