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  1. #91
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    How many stories can you really name where the partnership between Bruce and Tim was actually a feature. I honestly can't recall any beyond his origin. All the other ones i can remember were Bat family stories in general. And of course he was the first Robin to make "Robin" work as a standalone property with his ongoing, he was also the first Robin that they ever tried with their own ongoing.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-24-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  2. #92
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    How many stories can you really name where the partnership between Bruce and Tim was actually a feature. I honestly can't recall any beyond his origin. All the other ones i can remember were Bat family stories in general.
    I mean, I was thinking of Batfamily stories in general, but I was also thinking of every time Bruce was in Tim's solo (which was quite a bit) and that Robin wasn't necessarily a stranger in the main Batman books.

    I don't think it ever reached a point like in Rebirth where people complained about the fact that Batman and Robin are hardly ever seen together.
    And of course he was the first Robin to make "Robin" work as a standalone property with his ongoing, he was also the first Robin that they ever tried with their own ongoing.
    I wasn't trying to claim that the other Robins couldn't have held solo's in that identity if given a chance, Damian's series sold well for as long as DC kept going as I recall, just that Tim's run was still an accomplishment all his own.

  3. #93
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    Fair enough.

  4. #94
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    When comes to the "Arrow Family" I don't think you can compare it with Batman.
    The Batman franchise can easily support a several (bimonthly) batman books, plus mini series, plus some solo books for the other family members and occasionally even event series like the externals.

    When it comes to Green Arrow, he has only one one monthly book, and not even Black Canary seems to be able to support her own ongoing. And that just limits the amount of charters that they can put in the book.


    When it comes to Batfamily in the new 52, I think a major problem was that they put some of the characters (Tim, Jason) in other editorial groups, and than the Batoffice and writers didn't really cared for to do anything with or for the characters. Even in Batman Eternal were Dick and Damian were not part of the story, they did got anything important to do.
    Last edited by Aahz; 05-24-2018 at 11:49 PM.

  5. #95
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    The problem is that a story that features Damian has to be about Damian. Ergo why the stories where Damian is around Bruce are about Damian and Bruce. You dont get stories where Robin, Batmans partner and support is just that, Batmans partner and support, the guy that has Batmans back.

    I remember reading plenty of stories with Tim around where he didnt necesarily play a big role, he was there to enable Batman to shine and to take part of the burden, therefore you hardly remember him being there during knightfall for example, but he was there. He gave Bruce some very wise advice, and he saw it coming a mile away but he didnt shine or steal the spotlight in any particular way. Because it was first and foremost a story about Bane breaking the Bat.

    With Damian you simply cannot have that kind of story. If he is there he will fight Bane as effectively as Bruce would, the story would have to artificially find a way to keep him from intervening, etc.
    That is the main reason Batwriters dont want to write Damian in, he is a handful, both for the characters and for the writers. You positively 100% have to hear the characters input on any course of action or development.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Mataza;3687255]The problem is that a story that features Damian has to be about Damian. Ergo why the stories where Damian is around Bruce are about Damian and Bruce. You dont get stories where Robin, Batmans partner and support is just that, Batmans partner and support, the guy that has Batmans back.

    I remember reading plenty of stories with Tim around where he didnt necesarily play a big role, he was there to enable Batman to shine and to take part of the burden, therefore you hardly remember him being there during knightfall for example, but he was there. He gave Bruce some very wise advice, and he saw it coming a mile away but he didnt shine or steal the spotlight in any particular way. Because it was first and foremost a story about Bane breaking the Bat.

    With Damian you simply cannot have that kind of story. If he is there he will fight Bane as effectively as Bruce would, the story would have to artificially find a way to keep him from intervening, etc.
    That is the main reason Batwriters dont want to write Damian in, he is a handful, both for the characters and for the writers. You positively 100% have to hear the characters input on any course of action or development.[/QUOTE]

    Can I have your source on this claim?

    Synder, Tynion, King are all Bat writers who have managed to use Damian without him taking all the focus in the story.


    therefore you hardly remember him being there - Excellent.
    Last edited by dietrich; 05-25-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  7. #97
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    Deleted post
    Last edited by dietrich; 05-25-2018 at 12:31 PM. Reason: I'm better than this

  8. #98
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    LoL, Good. Fan-frigging-tastic. If a character is gonna be there, then he should be there. Otherswise there is no actual point of him being there. Being there, but hardly remembering that he was there, is really not something to commend LoL.
    It’s a good thing that Damian can’t be paint on the wall, but it’s just incorrect that he can’t be used in a supporting role when writers want to. We’ve seen it in Nightwing, and in other places too.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-25-2018 at 12:40 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Can I have your source on this claim?
    Its just plain to see. Its the nature of the character. He says himself at one point he is rambunctious. He constantly has to "TT", to remind you that he is there, and that he isnt happy, but in not so many words to avoid taking up too much space.

    Now im not saying this is bad, at all. But its the reason he just doesnt fit a certain kind of story, and certain teams.

    Its also the reason they make such an amazing team with both Jon and Dick. They are both very agreeable, and that contrast with Damians attitude creates a very fun dynamic.

  10. #100
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    Anyway, back on topic.

    So if it wasnt that the 90s generation was set up for failure, why change their personalities? did DC believe they couldnt succeed in todays market as they were? Because that strikes me as baffling.

    They had a strong iconography before the new 52. Especially Kon and Steph.

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    Its just plain to see. Its the nature of the character. He says himself at one point he is rambunctious. He constantly has to "TT", to remind you that he is there, and that he isnt happy, but in not so many words to avoid taking up too much space.

    Now im not saying this is bad, at all. But its the reason he just doesnt fit a certain kind of story, and certain teams.

    Its also the reason they make such an amazing team with both Jon and Dick. They are both very agreeable, and that contrast with Damians attitude creates a very fun dynamic.
    So in other words NO you don't.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Except im pretty sure Tim and Bruce never actually shared a book where they were featured together. Shorty after Tim was introduced they started his mini's and then his eventual solo.
    Tim Drake arrived in 1989.
    First mini was 91
    Series was 93

    He was in Batman & Detective Comic during that time. Where they were shown together. Especially in Detective Comics.


    Just ask fans of New X-Men/Generation Hope/Young Avengers/Avengers Academy/ect.
    Tim, Conner, Connor, Bart & Cass SOLD BOOKS as solo stars. You can't justify what was done to them when they moved books.
    Most of those Marvel teens are still around. Except for the black males-who seem to all meet the same fate-death.
    No one at Marvel will prevent them from being used like we saw with Cass & Steph.


    There is a reason Damian had to die but not working wasn't it.
    Damian didn't displace Robin that's a poisonous lie.
    Gee I thought Duke was the one who ruined Robin.

    You seem to be projecting here.
    The issue is Damian was meant to a SET story life and stay dead.
    Tim's issues were long started before Damian, Harper Row & Duke ever showed up. Yet fans want to blame them. Especially Damian.

    LoL, Good. Fan-frigging-tastic. If a character is gonna be there, then he should be there. Otherswise there is no actual point of him being there. Being there, but hardly remembering that he was there, is really not something to commend LoL.
    It was done to Duke MANY TIMES in Batman Rebirth.
    It was just done to Hotspot in Sideways.
    John Stewart as well.
    Heck even Black Panther is having it done to him in X-Men books and his own (AKA the stealth Storm book).
    It is done to trick fans into buying the book.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    The problem is that a story that features Damian has to be about Damian. Ergo why the stories where Damian is around Bruce are about Damian and Bruce. You dont get stories where Robin, Batmans partner and support is just that, Batmans partner and support, the guy that has Batmans back.

    I remember reading plenty of stories with Tim around where he didnt necesarily play a big role, he was there to enable Batman to shine and to take part of the burden, therefore you hardly remember him being there during knightfall for example, but he was there. He gave Bruce some very wise advice, and he saw it coming a mile away but he didnt shine or steal the spotlight in any particular way. Because it was first and foremost a story about Bane breaking the Bat.

    With Damian you simply cannot have that kind of story. If he is there he will fight Bane as effectively as Bruce would, the story would have to artificially find a way to keep him from intervening, etc.
    That is the main reason Batwriters dont want to write Damian in, he is a handful, both for the characters and for the writers. You positively 100% have to hear the characters input on any course of action or development.
    What are you talking about? I am Bane and Batman/TMNT 2 were two Batman vs Bane stories where Damian played a support role and did not "step in" to fight Bane equally. He's played a supporting role in Nightwing just fine, saying that Damian cant be wall paper is actually a compliment. But moreover you're just exaggerating and not taking context in to account. You say that this is the reason that Batman writers dont want to use him but apart from Dixon just how many Bat writers were exactly using Tim to begin with? Winick? Rucka? Brubaker? Dini? Morrison? Moench? Grant? Azzarello? Loeb? they used Tim as sparingly as Snyder and King used Damian. It just so happens that the 90's all the way to the early 2000's was an era of events and crossovers in which Tim's book participated in. This isn't anything new, Tim's successes came from his solo and YJ, Damian's come from Batman and Robin and Super Sons.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    What are you talking about? I am Bane and Batman/TMNT 2 were two Batman vs Bane stories where Damian played a support role and did not "step in" to fight Bane equally.
    He was barely in I am Bane appart from the Bat Burger scene. And I don't think that many of his fans felt that the use of him (or Dick and Jason) was particularly good in that story.

  15. #105
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    Which refutes Mataza's assertion that a hypothetical Bane story would have Damian stepping in to fight equally with him.

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