The Flash War Part 1 (spoilers)

[Waterfall]

But that works with the idea that she was originally meant to be alive, otherwise Thawne would never have gone back in the past to kill her and screw with Barry's origins. She was meant to be alive.

Sure why not? I'm not a fan of dead Nora but when the retcon happened, it was done in a way to make sure it stuck for movies and TV shows.

But this is comics .

Pardon me but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Barry warned Wally against changing time, but at the same time I think there's a difference between undoing something an evil time-traveler did (Thawne) and going back in time and undoing a natural occurrence (what happened to Hunter with Grodd).

The problem (in my opinion) with the arguments defending Barry fixing timeline is that this was never presented in the way you believe in the comic books. Barry didn't make a professional decision to fix what Thawne broke. Barry was

1- Emotionally unstable due to coming back from dead & Mirror Master's mirror.

2- He didn't remember a time Nora was alive so it was "natural" for him.

3- He did Flashpoint on Nora's birthday to highlight the fact that it was done out of grievance, not for heroic purposes. (very similar to Wally's anguish)

4- After Flashpoint, it was never treated as something Barry tried to do "heroically" and always presented as a mistake. Even the recent Flash War arc. is built on this.

How can we let it go when it's being treated as the Original Sin of the Flash mythos?

If DC would stop bringing it up and move on, with the Flash Family back in force, I doubt fans would care as much.

It IS the Original Sin of Flash. It's Barry's greatest sin.

Fans will never let it go as long as WB & DC portray Flashpoint as the greatest Flash story of all time. (which it isn't) I suppose Flash War is a good way to answer the obvious elephant in the room which is how Barry directly or indirectly ruined Wally's life.

[Frontier]

Sure why not? I'm not a fan of dead Nora but when the retcon happened, it was done in a way to make sure it stuck for movies and TV shows.

I don't think "stuck" is the right word for it, but adaptions do use it a lot because it's now The Flash's modern origin.

Although personally I don't think a bright and sunny Superhero with a dead mom and an imprisoned dad works as well for marketing a character to all ages compared to Batman and Superman's origins.

Pardon me but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I was trying to get at that people don't generally stay dead in comics, so death isn't really that much of an end.

The problem (in my opinion) with the arguments defending Barry fixing timeline is that this was never presented in the way you believe in the comic books. Barry didn't make a professional decision to fix what Thawne broke. Barry was

1- Emotionally unstable due to coming back from dead & Mirror Master's mirror.

2- He didn't remember a time Nora was alive so it was "natural" for him.

3- He did Flashpoint on Nora's birthday to highlight the fact that it was done out of grievance, not for heroic purposes. (very similar to Wally's anguish)

4- After Flashpoint, it was never treated as something Barry tried to do "heroically" and always presented as a mistake. Even the recent Flash War arc. is built on this.

Even taking that into account I think many would still look at what Barry did in a heroic light because he was trying to prevent a murder and save a life that should not have been taken by righting the timeline, only the story ends up punishing him and everyone else for it.

Hence the illogical nature of Flashpoint.

It IS the Original Sin of Flash. It's Barry's greatest sin.

Fans will never let it go as long as WB & DC portray Flashpoint as the greatest Flash story of all time. (which it isn't) I suppose Flash War is a good way to answer the obvious elephant in the room which is how Barry directly or indirectly ruined Wally's life.

I don't disagree with any of this.

[Waterfall]

I don't think "stuck" is the right word for it, but adaptions do use it a lot because it's now The Flash's modern origin.

It was written to be Barry's modern origin is what I'm saying.

Although personally I don't think a bright and sunny Superhero with a dead mom and an imprisoned dad works as well for marketing a character to all ages compared to Batman and Superman's origins.

I agree with you.

I was trying to get at that people don't generally stay dead in comics, so death isn't really that much of an end.

It's still relatively more "peaceful" than being tortured.

Even taking that into account I think many would still look at what Barry did in a heroic light because he was trying to prevent a murder and save a life that should not have been taken by righting the timeline, only the story ends up punishing him and everyone else for it.

Hence the illogical nature of Flashpoint.

Once again, the argument makes sense but it's never presented as such in comics. This is what makes Flashpoint ultimately a bad story that haunts Flash forever. I would bite my tongue and sit down if it was portrayed heroically, but it simply isn't.

[KC]

I would reply to all the previous posts, but Frontier covered the argument well.

It was written to be Barry's modern origin is what I'm saying.



I agree with you.


It's still relatively more "peaceful" than being tortured.



Once again, the argument makes sense but it's never presented as such in comics. This is what makes Flashpoint ultimately a bad story that haunts Flash forever. I would bite my tongue and sit down if it was portrayed heroically, but it simply isn't.

Yes, it is presented like that. Nora was not meant to die, Eobard changed time by killing her. Barry time traveled many times before he died and a Flashpoint never happened. This isn’t subjective, these are things that really happened in the comics.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Barry fans really need to let Flashpoint go, really. It was a mistake, he was in the wrong, . . .

Why does it seem to me like Wally fans are the ones who need to "let Flashpoint go"?
If they didn't keep bringing it up and blaming Barry for everything that's wrong and saying "Barry caused it", Barry fans wouldn't even be discussing it (especially since Geoff Johns made the miserable retcon with Nora over a year prior to Flashpoint).

[FlashEarthOne]

Why does it seem to me like Wally fans are the ones who need to "let Flashpoint go"?
If they didn't keep bringing it up and blaming Barry for everything that's wrong and saying "Barry caused it", Barry fans wouldn't even be discussing it (especially since Geoff Johns made the miserable retcon with Nora over a year prior to Flashpoint).

Exactly...

[Grayson]

So far so good, I would really like it if Wally got his own series after Flash War. I’d be down with reading 2 different Flash series. Also how do you think Bart would fit in if he’s brought back?

[JackDaw]

Exactly...

Yes, I agree.

A villain goes into the past and kills your mother, before the time fate decrees.

The hero “senses” that something is out of kilter. So goes into the past to try to save her. Er...precisely how Geoff J has written other heroes doing from time to time, for example Stargirl.

To decide that is a “sin” or in some way blameworthy is an extra-ordinary interpretation, UNLESS the writing made it absolutely clear that that the hero knew that trying to right the wrong would fail, and would cause more harm than good.

I doubt if even Geoff J wrote it that way!

(Geoff J incidentally tends to make it up as he goes along in time travel stories, rather than be consistent. If he fancies the villain can go into the past and alter things, that happens...if he fancies a change not being made, the concept of “frozen time” is trotted out. Writing becomes hard work if consistent rules are adhered to, so Geoff J avoids it.)

[Cmbmool]

I know why Wally is affected by these memories and not Barry, but shouldn’t Barry be slightly affected by these memories moments too ?

[Cmbmool]

Sure why not? I'm not a fan of dead Nora but when the retcon happened, it was done in a way to make sure it stuck for movies and TV shows.



Pardon me but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.



The problem (in my opinion) with the arguments defending Barry fixing timeline is that this was never presented in the way you believe in the comic books. Barry didn't make a professional decision to fix what Thawne broke. Barry was

1- Emotionally unstable due to coming back from dead & Mirror Master's mirror.

2- He didn't remember a time Nora was alive so it was "natural" for him.

3- He did Flashpoint on Nora's birthday to highlight the fact that it was done out of grievance, not for heroic purposes. (very similar to Wally's anguish)

4- After Flashpoint, it was never treated as something Barry tried to do "heroically" and always presented as a mistake. Even the recent Flash War arc. is built on this.



It IS the Original Sin of Flash. It's Barry's greatest sin.

Fans will never let it go as long as WB & DC portray Flashpoint as the greatest Flash story of all time. (which it isn't) I suppose Flash War is a good way to answer the obvious elephant in the room which is how Barry directly or indirectly ruined Wally's life.

Here I thought Mindwiping the Top was Barry’s greatest sin.

[AquaLantern]

And we wouldn't constantly see Barry's dead mother dredged up all the time...

Honestly that’s why The Flash isn’t on my reading list. Because not only because Barry Allen had his base origin changed to the generic “My parent(s) is dead!” trope , but it allows Reverse-Flash to do whatever the hell he wants and any attempts to prevent his dicking around with the untampered timeline results into the world going to hell, and Barry gets the complete blame for it.

What a load of crap.

[Frontier]

Honestly that’s why The Flash isn’t on my reading list. Because not only because Barry Allen had his base origin changed to the generic “My parent(s) is dead!” trope , but it allows Reverse-Flash to do whatever the hell he wants and any attempts to prevent his dicking around with the untampered timeline results into the world going to hell, and Barry gets the complete blame for it.

What a load of crap.

Well, conversely, any story with Thawne since then (at least excluding New 52 Thawne) has ended with him dead.

So maybe that's some karma, even if Thawne is obviously never going to stay dead.