Wonder Woman #47 - Discussion & Spoilers

[Sacred Knight]

Perhaps confusing is the wrong word. Soulless would be a better one. This has nothing to do with SM/WW and its an odd deflect to paint it as such, really. IMO, the reconciling of the changes was poor on his part (I didn't need it to be pointed out that the clay birth was still not back in, I actually agree that the onus was on specifically pointing out it was back, I made that argument before so that was never a grievance of mine) in regards to the emotional ramifications it had on Diana herself. She went "insane" for a while and then suddenly was not. It was just..lifeless, and it left most of her relationships in the same state as a result.


To each their own though. I know he has a popular following here, and judging by sales, across the WW fandom for the most part. I on the other hand just think he's highly overrated with the character.

[brettc1]

Love the Rucka reboot. It let me buy WW again without feeling depressed. Yay Rucka

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't call it confusing, i call it crappy. Rucka's new History is the blandest possible, he utterly failed to make me care about any and all the characters he (re)introduced.

To each their own, I guess. I cared about quite a few of them.

Rucka's Amazon are also incredibly boring goodies in the story because... because, I guess.

They're good for the same reason the Waynes and the Kents generally are: because they are good people who raised one of the world's best heroes. And they were the only example we had in the DCU of an all female cast doing that. Rucka gave us more named Amazons with distinct characterizations in one issue than Azzarello managed in three years. And Philippus still acted mistrustful towards Steve because he was male, so she wasn't a saint despite overall being a good person.

And yes, his Diana was an unloveable character, dissing on the previous continuity which was then utterly erased so those jabs were both uncalled and utterly meaningless, only managing to alienate the fans of the SM/WW pairing, among which I stand.

If the previous continuity didn't want to be dissed, it in turn shouldn't have dissed the continuity that came before it. What else do you think Diana's dumb as hell "nothing can be built from perfection" comments were, forgetting that there is a WIDE gap between being a perfect saint and tossing babies off cliffs? The Amazons were never perfect, they just weren't cartoonish caricatures who hated musk before either. That kind of writing is inevitably going to get a response. Azzarello shouldn't dish it out if he can't take it (for the record, I don't think he cares that much).

Add to that the fact that both the villains and the "Patrons" were incredibly bland and uninteresting, with even ridiculous looks (Rucka's Circe is utterly devoid of anything appealling, down to her appearance, compared to the New 52 one, same for the Gods).

New 52's Circe's design would be great for a Gotham supervillain who was going for a "demonically possessed Pipi Longstocking" look, but fails utterly when applied to her. Rucka's Circe was designed in casual civilian wear, and could zap herself with another look if she wanted. Characterization wise, her brief appearance was more engaging than the generic "I hate women/I'll get you next time Wonder Woman! And you're little dog too!" Circe of the New 52.

I couldn't care less about Cale and her group of evil women to remain on board with the book and even after I've managed to muster the willpower to Wade through the run in full online, I can't remember anything about them beyond "Cale is angry at WW because she fucked up and her daughter was cursed by Greek Gods".

Then you must be deliberately overlooking a lot of stuff to miss the fact that whereas Diana is empowered by love, Cale (despite loving her daughter and willing to cross any line to save her) views love as a weakness that makes her vulnerable and that others can used against her, and her pride prevents her from just asking Diana for help and thus makes things worse for herself. She's a very human character that lends herself to a Greek tragedy. I used to dislike Cale, but Rebirth shot her up to my top 5 WW villains.

Robinson though, he wrote her as just being generically angry, and barely mentions her daughter. And has her begging for her life at the hands of Cheetah, which...no.

So yeah, in my book, Rucka's second run is an hot piece of rotten meat. At least with Robinson's stale bread run, you're less at risk of dying/getting extremely ill. The best thing which could happen to Diana is that someone down the line utterly disregarded her Rebirth runs and start anew. I don't care if she is the only one rebooting, once more, since her books are basically so secluded from the others that it wouldn't change anything for the rest of the DC continuity.

I dropped this book after Robinson's first arc, so I'm going to die of starvation if we don't get a good replacement for him.

Perhaps confusing is the wrong word. Soulless would be a better one. This has nothing to do with SM/WW and its an odd deflect to paint it as such, really. IMO, the reconciling of the changes was poor on his part (I didn't need it to be pointed out that the clay birth was still not back in, I actually agree that the onus was on specifically pointing out it was back, I made that argument before so that was never a grievance of mine) in regards to the emotional ramifications it had on Diana herself. She went "insane" for a while and then suddenly was not. It was just..lifeless, and it left most of her relationships in the same state as a result.

To be fair, I do I agree with you that the present day stuff (barring Cheetah's scenes) were weaker than the flashback arcs. Ferdinand's presence miraculously curing her was annoying. But I definitely wouldn't call Year One and especially Godwatch soulless. Especially compared to the tripe we're getting now.

But why do the relationships need to change? What would be the point of changing her relationship with her mother and the Amazons, especially since messing around with it so much just pissed off too many fans that it would be a dumb business desceison to double down on it. Her relationship with Cheetah was fleshed out after the half assed attempts in the New 52. Her dynamic with Etta DID change by the end of the run, but they botched any interesting direction for that in the next issue. And Batman and Superman's relationships with their major supporting casts don't change all that much either.

Love the Rucka reboot. It let me buy WW again without feeling depressed. Yay Rucka

Yeah me too. Now, on the other hand (well, I'm not buying it, but...).

[Korath]

They're good for the same reason the Waynes and the Kents generally are: because they are good people who raised one of the world's best heroes. And they were the only example we had in the DCU of an all female cast doing that. Rucka gave us more named Amazons with distinct characterizations in one issue than Azzarello managed in three years. And Philippus still acted mistrustful towards Steve because he was male, so she wasn't a saint despite overall being a good person.

I'll just adress it, because the rest is clearly a matter of taste, and everything Rucka did since Rebirth for Diana was for me utterly worthless or disgusting. So to each their own. But what I meant here is that once Diana left the Island, the Amazons had no reason to reapper in the story, except for Rucka to paint them as those goodi two shoes. And that's even without taking into account the fact that I loath the depiction of a segregationnist and autarcic society in a good light to begin with. Hyppolyta and the others were just taking panel space because Rucka wanted to appease fans of pre-Flashpoint, I guess.

Also, I would like to point out that nothing Azzarello did precluded the main bulk of Diana's stories to have happened. Rucka made sure that nothing could ever be used from New 52, thus utterly erasing the five years of it (or relegating them as an ELseworld, still better in its mythological depiction than what he did). That's why I say he dissed the previous continuity.

[brettc1]

Yay for appeasing fans pre-Flashpoint and jettisoning Azzarello.

[Agent Z]

I'll just adress it, because the rest is clearly a matter of taste, and everything Rucka did since Rebirth for Diana was for me utterly worthless or disgusting. So to each their own. But what I meant here is that once Diana left the Island, the Amazons had no reason to reapper in the story, except for Rucka to paint them as those goodi two shoes. And that's even without taking into account the fact that I loath the depiction of a segregationnist and autarcic society in a good light to begin with. Hyppolyta and the others were just taking panel space because Rucka wanted to appease fans of pre-Flashpoint, I guess.

Also, I would like to point out that nothing Azzarello did precluded the main bulk of Diana's stories to have happened. Rucka made sure that nothing could ever be used from New 52, thus utterly erasing the five years of it (or relegating them as an ELseworld, still better in its mythological depiction than what he did). That's why I say he dissed the previous continuity.

Rucka did not remove the clay origin. Azzarello's book by definition was meant to have been a reboot which meant the main bulk of Diana's previous stories did not happen.

[Korath]

Rucka did not remove the clay origin. Azzarello's book by definition was meant to have been a reboot which meant the main bulk of Diana's previous stories did not happen.

But they could have happened. Nothing in his run prevented it, nowhere was it said that it was her Year One or that nothing of her past existed. Rucka purposely erased at least five years of stories (since Azzarello wasn't the only one touched by his retcon of her never going back to Themyscira) and failed to establish anything meaningful to fill the void he had thus created. Some peoples here are gushing over Godwatch, but it was an utterly boring storyline, with boring and uninteresting character, except for nsotalgia fanatics who got to fawn over the return of so many older rogues, failing to notice that none of them had a lasting appeal for newcomers like myself. It's a problem for Robinson also, with perhaps the exception of his Silver Swan, and even then it's a big perhaps.

And Rebirth was marketed as "not a reboot" when the New 52 was open about its rebooting nature. Which makes what Rucka did far worse : it was insulting for the works of creators before him, smacked of grand-standing and yet utterly failed to make me care about any of the characters, even Diana. In fact, while Azzarello finally made me realize that there was a lot to love with Diana, Rucka's rebirth run soured me so much that I more or less hoped that even her movie would tank so D.C. would be forced to go another way with her. Thankfully, it didn't happen in the end, but Rucka's Wonder Woman is totally unlovable as a character for me, and while his run is hardly better, Robinson's Diana is light-years ahead of Rucka's. For all his faults, he had least reconcilied me with Wonder Woman.

[Nyssane]

Some peoples here are gushing over Godwatch, but it was an utterly boring storyline, with boring and uninteresting character, except for nsotalgia fanatics who got to fawn over the return of so many older rogues, failing to notice that none of them had a lasting appeal for newcomers like myself.

That sounds like a you problem. Most reviews and fan reactions I've seen, even from newcomers, have noted that Rucka's Rebirth run was instrumental in fixing the "Wonder Woman's villains suck" issue. It all comes down to personal taste, so you may not like them, but you're in the minority.

And Rebirth was marketed as "not a reboot" when the New 52 was open about its rebooting nature. Which makes what Rucka did far worse : it was insulting for the works of creators before him, smacked of grand-standing and yet utterly failed to make me care about any of the characters, even Diana.

It was marketed as "not a reboot," yes, but it was also (very strongly, I might add) marketed as a "return to the classics." DC acknowledged that the New 52 wasn't the success they were hoping for so they returned to a more Post-Crisis feel to appease longtime fans. Maybe to the detriment of some newcomers like you, unfortunately, but it is what it is.

Anyway, this probably isn't the thread for all this anyway. Isn't there a Rucka vs. Azzarello thread already out there?

[Agent Z]

But they could have happened. Nothing in his run prevented it, nowhere was it said that it was her Year One or that nothing of her past existed. Rucka purposely erased at least five years of stories (since Azzarello wasn't the only one touched by his retcon of her never going back to Themyscira) and failed to establish anything meaningful to fill the void he had thus created. Some peoples here are gushing over Godwatch, but it was an utterly boring storyline, with boring and uninteresting character, except for nsotalgia fanatics who got to fawn over the return of so many older rogues, failing to notice that none of them had a lasting appeal for newcomers like myself. It's a problem for Robinson also, with perhaps the exception of his Silver Swan, and even then it's a big perhaps.

And Rebirth was marketed as "not a reboot" when the New 52 was open about its rebooting nature. Which makes what Rucka did far worse : it was insulting for the works of creators before him, smacked of grand-standing and yet utterly failed to make me care about any of the characters, even Diana. In fact, while Azzarello finally made me realize that there was a lot to love with Diana, Rucka's rebirth run soured me so much that I more or less hoped that even her movie would tank so D.C. would be forced to go another way with her. Thankfully, it didn't happen in the end, but Rucka's Wonder Woman is totally unlovable as a character for me, and while his run is hardly better, Robinson's Diana is light-years ahead of Rucka's. For all his faults, he had least reconcilied me with Wonder Woman.

How? There are numerous stories that are completely incompatible with the New 52. To start with, the idea of the Amazons being created for some purpose by the Olympians is laughed off in the New 52 when that was why they were created pre Flashpoint. Diana was the only child born on Themyscira pre Flashpoint. In the New 52 every Amazon except Diana is born as a result of the pirate raids. Steve's mother is never mentioned nor appears and Azzarello's origin issue treated Steve as the first contact Themyscira had with the outside world. Ares' entire motive and relationship with the Amazons in the New 52 is completely different from what it was like pre-Flashpoint where she was never trained by him. Athena desposed Zeus from the throne in Rucka's first run. in New 52 she makes sure he never leaves it. Hippolyta showed no attraction to Zeus pre-Flashpoint and I doubt she would have after what his son did to her and her people. And I'd really like to know how she went from having black hair to blonde hair. Speaking of Zeus, how is Cassie bow both his daughter and grand daughter? You'd think Diana would have brought that up in the previous continuity.

The New 52 was not open about it's rebooting nature, at least not initially. You'd have writers and editors (including Azzarello himself) insisting that everything before was in continuity even when it contradicted what was shown on the page. In the end, Rucka only did to Azzarello's run what Azzarello did to previous runs - dismissed them as no longer existing

[Gaelforce]

Aaaaand let's get back to discussing the issue, shall we?

If you want to slam or praise some other creative team, find the right thread for it. Debating the merits or failings of past runs on the book should go elsewhere, please.

[The Dying Detective]

You have to give Robinson credit for not throwing away the foundation established by Rucka it's as good as it's going to get with his run. Also I think people would be more worried about how Tynion is going to handle Cheetah on his Legion of Doom book.

[brettc1]

And Rebirth was marketed as "not a reboot" when the New 52 was open about its rebooting nature. Which makes what Rucka did far worse : it was insulting for the works of creators before him, smacked of grand-standing and yet utterly failed to make me care about any of the characters, even Diana.

LOL.

Anyone would think that Rucka sneaked into the DC offices, wrote the story without anyone knowing, bribed Nicola Scott to draw it, stole into the printers, and secretly ran off tens of thousands of copies of Wonder Woman while the editors were all looking the other way.

Meanwhile, Robinson also has an editorial mandate, but I simply don't find his story very engaging. Jason is not as offensive to me as the Azzarellozons, but he takes up way too much space in the book that could be use for...

...well, Steve!

[Tee29]

Should wonder woman be faster than flash since she is powered by Hermes who is the god of speed and the Godwave which is the thing that created the speed force?

[Mel Dyer]

...Meanwhile, Robinson also has an editorial mandate, but I simply don't find his story very engaging. Jason is not as offensive to me as the Azzarellozons, but he takes up way too much space in the book that could be use for...

...well, Steve!

The WW comic already has a well-rounded cast of male supporting characters: Steve Trevor, Ferdinand and I Ching. In them, you find Diana's romantic lead, the lovable/pitiable monster and the wise, old mentor - all time-honored literary archetypes. There are large and small, regular and more infrequent roles for ALL of them to play in her on-going narrative, ..without Jason. Isn't it a shame that no writer seems to appreciate that?

And if an official male Wonder is desired, Diana's cousin, Virbius Rex (Hippolytos), who's basically a Woodland Aquaman, fills out the playbill, very nicely.

Etta is Diana's best friend, and I'm still waiting for an editorial mandate that requires her to be used, as much as Jimmy Olsen or Alfred. How about every or every other issue?

[brettc1]

The WW comic already has a well-rounded cast of male supporting characters: Steve Trevor, Ferdinand and I Ching. In them, you find Diana's romantic lead, the lovable/pitiable monster and the wise, old mentor - all time-honored literary archetypes. There are large and small, regular and more infrequent roles for ALL of them to play in her on-going narrative, ..without Jason. Isn't it a shame that no writer seems to appreciate that?

And if an official male Wonder is desired, Diana's cousin, Virbius Rex (Hippolytos), who's basically a Woodland Aquaman, fills out the playbill, very nicely.

Etta is Diana's best friend, and I'm still waiting for an editorial mandate that requires her to be used, as much as Jimmy Olsen or Alfred. How about every or every other issue?

Yeah.

We haven't seen Ferdinand for months. Or I Ching.

And in case nobody has noticed, Steve has not been given much steam as a romantic interest lately. Some occasional lip service, and I don't mean kissing.