New 52 Superman wasn't Invulnerable.

[Sacred Knight]

Still not seeing any massive differentials. New 52 Superman perceived Barry in the span of a nanosecond hence why he was able to flick him with his finger. He also ripped Doomsday in half. That's pretty damn forceful. He wasn't faltering in any department in any noticeable way. And I don't remember it ever being stated that New 52 Barry was any slower than pre-FP Barry, so that the universe world around him was less powerful in compassion doesn't wash either. Judging just by the present materials, difference in terms of tangible feats were quite negligible.

[The Learner]

Still not seeing any massive differentials. New 52 Superman perceived Barry in the span of a nanosecond hence why he was able to flick him with his finger. And I don't remember it ever being stated that New 52 Barry was any slower than pre-FP Barry.

Where is the evidence that new52 Barry was moving at his best? It is evident from the way he moved against Superman that he was being cocky. Also that Barry hadn't mastered his powers well and didn't have any feats on post crisis Barry/Wally's level. You can't see one is superior to other written anywhere because it doesn't exist because they didn't exist at the same period on the same Earth. As I said above, we analyze what they have accomplished in their different incarnations. And one version has feats superior to the other one.

[Sacred Knight]

The burden of proof would be on somehow trying to prove he wasn't moving at his best as there's nothing on the page to suggest he wasn't, as cocky doesn't necessarily mean anything. He was cocky but he was also outright trying to prove he couldn't be touched. That doesn't suggest holding back. And again, where are the examples of New 52 Barry being weaker? You're talking about analysis yet you're not offering any examples that can't be immediately countered, nor any direct references. The analysis sounds more like a generalization based off of cherry picking, really. You're trying to paint a picture of a weaker version of the heroes compared to what came before and that just doesn't add up to the facts of the initiative. It was never part of the New 52 playbook to depower anything, by and large. De-aging, yes. Depowering, no.

[The Learner]

The burden of proof would be on somehow trying to prove he wasn't moving at his best, not that he was taking it easy. And again, where are the examples of New 52 Barry being weaker? You're talking about analysis yet you're not offering any examples that can't be immediately countered nor any direct references. Frankly it sounds completely made up.

The Barry-Superman incident you are referring to happened before Barry had mastered his powers iirc. There is no way to prove he was moving in the span of nanoseconds. He could have been moving at supersonic or hypersonic speeds. Heroes don't go against their enemies at their best every time, that's why what we call PIS exists. Let me ask you, what feats does new52 Barry have on post crisis Wally's level? Direct references? How could they even exist? It is not like they were both running around and operating on the same planet at the same period. We are talking about different versions of the same character from different timelines. Silver Age Superman would beat new52 and Post Crisis Superman put together with his eyes closed. Silver Age Superman's superiority isn't written anywhere or nobody has given any direct references to it. Then how do we know SA Supes is superior?Because the feats he has are vastly superior to what the others have. In the same way, the feats PC Clark has are better than what new52 Superman has, same goes for Barry, Wally, J'onn, GL, Diana etc. I have already given an example of PC Clark's superior operational speed, and posting other feats would turn this into a versus thread. You provided a feat and claimed it is as good as what I provided when nothing on that incident proves they were operating at nanoseconds.

[Sacred Knight]

Your logic seems to be entirely based upon shooting down examples that don't support your argument by making up reasons not suggested by the material to explain away why certain things weren't operating as good as your examples. I mean, stepping away from Barry (and I don't know pre-FP vs New 52 power levels for the Flash, that's why I asked first if there was any indication in his published materials that suggested it) for a moment, what about the Doomsday example? New 52 Doomsday was concretely more powerful than even the original version. It killed living things just by being in the presence of life. Didn't even have to do anything, his very being was simply a pestilence. Superman not only overcame that, he also tore the being asunder. How does this even remotely equate to that version of Superman somehow being less durable or less forceful than the other version?

[The Learner]

My logic is sound, you're not getting it. Where did I shoot down anything? You provided an unquantifiable feat and claimed it is as good as the one I provided. Am I supposed to take your word for it and believe it was a nanosecond feat when nothing, absolutely nothing on panel supports that notion?

You know overpowering Doomsday isn't the benchmark of durability right? PC Clark survived supernovas multiple times, what feat does new52 Superman have on that level?

[Sacred Knight]

How are any of these feats scientifically quantifiable? They're all unrealistic acts of superpowers based off science fiction, not science fact. One example throws in the word "nanosecond" and that makes it more valid? Come on. And I provided two feats actually. But apparently space calamities are the benchmark. New 52 survived hurling himself and Brainiac into a black hole, living through the crushing gravitational force. There simply is not that vast a difference. Your logic for looking for feats is fine, but its not having the interest in looking for examples for the other side, or by wanting quantifiable factors that you don't require with your examples, that makes your process biased.

[The Learner]

What's the second one? Doomsday?

[The World]

We literally got the breathing apparatus thing back because Post-Crisis Superman came back the literal point of Post-Crisis Superman is that he's kind of a chump compared to what he once was and that was suppose to open up more writing opportunities. Yeah I guess if you take only the best feats of the 25+ years of post-crisis continuity and compare it to N52 Superman he'd lose largely because people started defying the very ideas the post-crisis Superman was built on. But take the first five years of each where you had N52 Superman outracing teleportation from a galaxy away, learning complicated surgeries in a minute, and the infamous earth lifting feat compared to post-crisis Supes needing trinkets to move through space without dying and the writers we so gun shy about his strength they attributed his high end lifting feats to his flight abilities.

Post-Crisis Superman got up there in power basically in spite of who he was and where he came from. N52 Superman was poweful because he was Superman and doing that sort of thing was just the standard.

[Kuwagaton]

He's not the post crisis Superman, since his origin was the 2009 version. And again, the breathing apparatus is a misread idea.

Which incident are you referring to?

The scars on his back that came from a battle with Lex during the time skip.

Also that Barry hadn't mastered his powers well and didn't have any feats on post crisis Barry/Wally's level.

The burden of proof would be on somehow trying to prove he wasn't moving at his best as there's nothing on the page to suggest he wasn't, as cocky doesn't necessarily mean anything. He was cocky but he was also outright trying to prove he couldn't be touched. That doesn't suggest holding back. And again, where are the examples of New 52 Barry being weaker? You're talking about analysis yet you're not offering any examples that can't be immediately countered, nor any direct references. The analysis sounds more like a generalization based off of cherry picking, really. You're trying to paint a picture of a weaker version of the heroes compared to what came before and that just doesn't add up to the facts of the initiative. It was never part of the New 52 playbook to depower anything, by and large. De-aging, yes. Depowering, no.

Learner is right in the sense that year one New 52 Barry wasn't as skilled as the pre flashpoint version and five years later still hadn't broken the speed of light in his own comic. Whereas pre flashpoint Superman had broken the speed of light.

As for Doomsday, he may or may not have been stronger physically, but those are two completely different power sets. The classic Doomsday had the power of adapting so that he was virtually impossible to beat. The New 52 Doomsday didn't have that power but the "death factor" in its place.

[Sacred Knight]

Okay, fair enough. I was needing some clarification there in the area for Barry, I'm not a big Flash reader hence my asking. No problem striking that as an example. Plenty of others though to show Superman quite on par with the pre-FP Superman incarnation. There's not going to be AS many examples now, there simply can't be as we're comparing an incarnation that lasted more than 15 years (if we limit just to post-Zero Hour stuff and beyond) to one that lasted 5. But they're there, and they're similar enough to show that the differences are, apologies for being a broken record, quite negligible.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Post-Crisis Superman is a relative term, but if we're talking the time period of 1986 up until Zero Hour, he was absolutely weaker than New 52 Superman. Because frankly outside of the original norms of his absolute earliest years, that was the weakest Superman incarnation ever by design. The nerfing gradually started to be let go around then.

But even before the reboot hit it looked like they had made a point to make the New 52 version stronger than what had even immediately come before. But that's at least splitting hairs territory.

The post crisis one was made deliberately weaker in an effort to present credible threats for him to face. The silver age version was juggling planets for fun at one point. They did a similar thing with Wally West as The Flash since his top speed was 750mph. If I recall correctly, post crisis gradually gained an increase in invulnerability after his fight with Doomsday. Not only did his strength and durability increase, his computational skills and lung capacity did as well. Before Doomsday he couldn't survive long periods in space without a breathing apparatus. After Doomsday he could suddenly breathe in space. Wally West also overcame his limitations around the same time.

[The Learner]

My university exams begin on 31st May, so I do not intend to spend much time debating this topic. So don't mind if I didn't reply in time. Durability, speed [travel and combat/reaction], striking power, senses, heat vision, fighting skills - PC Clark is Super in all these categories. Due to the lack of time, I will only elaborate on one of these categories now.

Heat vision: This is simple. The peak temperature of New52 Superman's heat vision was stated to be 5000°C in Superman Unchained. It isn't that impressive by comics standard. Post Crisis Superman's heat vision was stated to be as hot as the core of sun which is 15 million degrees Celsius or 27 million degrees Fahrenheit. 5000 vs 15 million, which one is superior? On top of the far higher temperature, Clark could make it as wide as Earth and has used it to seal breaches in reality etc. They aren't even remotely comparable.

Their speed isn't equal either. One of them [Nupes] has milliseconds as his best operational speed while the other one has milliseconds, microseconds and nanoseconds feats. PC Clark has even had entire conversations while everything and everyone around him was frozen, including other super-fast characters not named Flash. He was so fast he could vibrate his molecules to phase through objects and punches.

Edit : Thanks Kuwagaton for the info on Barry.

[Kuwagaton]

Good luck on your exams!

Sacred has two points: that whatever difference wasn't necessarily important to the stories, and that examples are mostly the result of time constraints. New 52 Superman ran for five years and ran well below full power for about two years total. We only have a few examples and they all take place close to each other, where other eras had so much time that it's hard to tell when he even became capable of his higher end feats (the initial power spike after Doomsday was a temporary thing).

[Sacred Knight]

If they actually put numbers to the heat vision thing, fair enough there too, I don't remember those stories. I do apologizing for accusing you of not paying attention to the New 52 side of things in that case. I'm not sure they made up numbers for absolutely all of each versions feats so I'm still not convinced on any of those. But hey if they did, they did, and I'll acquiesce. Wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken and will not be the last. Also good luck on your exams as well.