Any way to improve "coherence" of the Marvel Universe?

[JackDaw]

I read a fair bit of fantasy and historical prose. And one thing that nearly always strikes me (compared to Marvel) is that a lot of the better written novels or series often feature worlds which "feel" more reasonable/ realistic than Marvel's world setting.

What I mean by "realistic" in this sense is that once writer has made his initial fictional assumptions, he works out what might reasonably happen if those assumptions are true. For example, in Patrick O'Brians fictional naval battles...a first rate ship with say 78 guns doesn't lose a gun battle to a frigate with 8 light guns...if the frigate captain is daft enough to allow his ship to be trapped in still air, his ship gets blown to smithereens. He doesn't win because he's a tough dude with attitude! Equally the frigate can outrun a first rate, in most sea conditions

Or take a comic example: Greg Rucka's Lazarus..Greg makes some broad assumptions about how future may pan out (a growing scarcity of resources, some break throughs in bio-engineering, family combines dominating wide areas of the Earth, etc)...but once those assumptions are made, he works out what might happen logically and consistently. A Lazarus (a bio-engineered house champion) does not lose fights to plucky mortals.

Compare that to Marvel...the overall storytelling world doesn't pan out. Take the Jonathan Hickman Avengers run I'm reading (and enjoying incidentally) now. This is full of ultra powerful characters...guys who can destroy planets (and some more powerful still), ruthless villains very happy to kill, etc. Oh...and a level of super hero technology that allows Tony Stark to build a Dyson sphere around sun in a couple of days, and capture a significant level of the suns' total energy, and use it for his own purposes.

And yet we're supposed to believe that Captain America...a normal peak human (i.e. can maybe lift 20 stone above his head, and run 30 miles a hour) and Hawkeye (wow the guy's got a bow and arrow, and can shoot straight) are major players in the pitched battles..they go into fight after after fight...and nothing happens to them, save a bit of blood is sometimes shown on face...and sometimes (shock, horror)...their costume is ripped.

Complete nonsense. And there are sorts of other ways world doesn't make overall sense. Given level of technology, why are there any cars anymore?? What weren't practically all humans bio-engineered to godhood 10 years ago (given the level of scientific feats routinely achieved in a matter of hours)?? Etc, etc.

I know there are writers that can still tell good stories in this overall setting. But I actually think those good stories are achieved in spite of the overall setting, rather than because of it.

Can anything be done to improve overall setting? If so, what??

Or does it have to stay more or less as it is now, and all the mishmash excused with the ever-popular phrase "That's comics."? (NB...No, it's the way Marvel...one very successful purveyor of some comics decides to operate!)

[Xalfrea]

Having things set with specific rules in place would help, but I can imagine how some writers would feel extremely annoyed at having these "restrictions" and this box blocking them from probably doing whatever they want to do. Then again the Marvel Universe has practically been an inconsistent mishmash from day one. I still don't get how the likes of the X-Men are persecuted, while others like the Fantastic Four or Avengers are treated better by comparison. With a universe that has super tech, magic, aliens, dimensions, alternate universes or the like, it would be an extremely uphill battle to try and make things "normalized".

[JackDaw]

Having things set with specific rules in place would help, but I can imagine how some writers would feel extremely annoyed at having these "restrictions" and this box blocking them from probably doing whatever they want to do. Then again the Marvel Universe has practically been an inconsistent mishmash from day one. I still don't get how the likes of the X-Men are persecuted, while others like the Fantastic Four or Avengers are treated better by comparison. With a universe that has super tech, magic, aliens, dimensions, alternate universes or the like, it would be an extremely uphill battle to try and make things "normalized".

(By way...I'll be first to admit that I think it's a tough question...I think there are too many popular characters withs such disparate power sets that there is no fix, I can personally think of, that I think would work. But then often have experience of seeing other people coming up with solutions I can't think of myself.)

Actually, I think overall setting in very, very early days of Marvel worked better than it does now, in terms of overall coherence. There were far fewer super powered characters, and top end feats by humans/ super humans were a fair bit more restrained than now. Yes...Mr Fantastic could always do incredible scientific feats...but he wasn't remotely into large scale manufacturing. So you could look at overall setting...very few super humans, less powerful than now...and sort of more easily accept that largely their world was roughly similar to ours in most respects. And easier to accept that Captain America...and the other low end supers..could be major players when far fewer top end powerhouses existed.

I imagine part of reason for Ultimate line was to re-set world, and try to make it a more convincing setting. For me, that seemed to work quite well. (I only read Ultimate Spider-man, so am only judging on limited data...but that was a more convincing world setting for me that 616 Marvel setting.)

[Ra-El]

The problem with Marvel and DC is that their universes can't evolve beyond a certain point, but the power scale and tech keep going up. So even with Thor and Sentry at Marvel, and Superman and Orion at DC, those publishers can not just admit that popular characters like Captain America and Batman wouldn't be effect and would probably die on the first alien invasion.

[Michael Watkins]

Step one kill Gwenpool

[Matternativ]

Yeah I disagree on that matter.

The fact that anything can happen and one character can battle aliens in space and then get beaten down by evil Henchmen on the street if that fits the tone of either books or the fact that most of it is nonsense is what makes Superhero Comics what they are and give them their unique charme.

Do not forget that the whole Universe is built upon stories that were and often still are aimed at kids.

I've got other franchises and media's for the mature and more complex storytelling. Doesn't mean that you can't tell mature and or complex stories in the context of that Universe but they do not define it.

PS: Silver Age Hawkeye defeated Abomination and She-Hulk 1 on 1 so I would not say the Universe felt more coherent in the past.

[gurkle]

A super hero universe that made sense wouldn't be a super hero universe. Nobody thinks it makes sense for Batman to struggle to defeat a bunch of penny-ante criminals when his buddy Superman can fly over and beat them all up. They exist in the same universe not because it makes sense, but because crossovers are fun, and for the fun of the crossovers we're willing to accept the absurdity of Batman being a useful member of the Justice League.

That doesn't mean writers just have a license to do anything because the rules of the universe are incoherent. Good writers do find a way to make Batman or Captain America useful, even if it's completely ridiculous (like Cap, Black Widow and Falcon jumping in to defeat two superpowered villains who just nearly defeated their superpowered teammates). But it's a game: a good story wins the game by finding a good reason for all the characters who don't fit together to be together. But we accept that the rules of the game are that we don't treat this like a universe with coherent rules.

[JKtheMac]

You are comparing totally different things. On the one hand a tailored setting specifically created to tell a group of stories within a single genre or compatible genres, on the other a broad setting required to act as a backdrop to multiple genres and tones, with entirely different expectations.

If we were to make the MU more like the former it would severely limit the scope and breadth of comics that Marvel could publish.

[MyriVerse]

Can anything be done to improve overall setting? If so, what??

You. Suspend. Disbelief. That is all.

[JackDaw]

You are comparing totally different things. On the one hand a tailored setting specifically created to tell a group of stories within a single genre or compatible genres, on the other a broad setting required to act as a backdrop to multiple genres and tones, with entirely different expectations.

If we were to make the MU more like the former it would severely limit the scope and breadth of comics that Marvel could publish.

I think the present story telling conventions that Marvel and DC use tend to severely limit the scope and breadth of their mainstream comics.

It’s just about become impossible..for example..to tell a convincing death story, a convincing retirement story in mainstream Marvel or D.C. or a story about a new hero becoming apprentice to another and replacing the main hero. D.C. showed in practice that could be done..but then backtracked by bringing Hal Jordan and Barry Allen back.

A large slug of the super hero conventions result from a calculated decision by both main publishers to preserve “selling power” of big brand icons. But there’s nothing in super hero stories by itself that makes those conventions inevitable, or without question the best way to get super hero stories.

The first hundred or so issues of the Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four showed characters maturing, going to college, having kids, etc. That could have continued..characters could have died, retired, be replaced by others, etc.

Things could have gone that way. And there’s at least a reasonable chance it would have led to better stories. But..of course..they might not have sold as well. And easier to recycle similar stuff endlessly.

[DigiCom]

You. Suspend. Disbelief. That is all.

"Also, the alcohol helps."

[Alan2099]

To paraphrase a great man, repeat to yourself it's just a comic. I should really just relax.

[JackDaw]

"Also, the alcohol helps."

Lol.

But the writing and overall story setting can also help or hinder the suspension of disbelief.

Mainstream super hero comics don’t sell as well as they used to, or as well as they could now. Blind allegiance to a particular set of stultifying conventions most likely doesn’t help.

Mind you the biggest single problem is probably price per hour of entertainment. Hopefully once value of Marvel digital subscription service gets more widely known, readership might grow again.

[WebLurker]

Mind you the biggest single problem is probably price per hour of entertainment. Hopefully once value of Marvel digital subscription service gets more widely known, readership might grow again.

There's no substitute for actually owning the material in question, IMHO.

[Tazpocalapse]

I think that Marvel could experiment with a new version of the New Universe line with those type of stories having that sort of realistic element except this time the New Universe is based off Marvel heroes.