Any way to improve "coherence" of the Marvel Universe?

[JKtheMac]

I get the concept of suspension of disbelief just fine. It is this: to paraphrase Coleridge, if the author wants willing suspension of disbelief for the moment from the readers, then the author must procure it by providing in turn 'a human interest and a semblance of truth' sufficient to that purpose. The suspension of disbelief towards fantastic or implausible elements of the story does not and cannot be expected to come 'free', it must always be earned by a serious effort at providing verisimilitude in other aspects of the fiction. Common elements that help provide a 'semblance of truth' include plausible or at least relatable character reactions even to the implausible (i.e., 'human interest'), and internal consistency as to how the fantastic elements work and interact with the more realistic ones.

Another way of formulating this is by reference to Tolkien's concept, not of suspension of disbelief (which he considered a misnomer because readers rarely believe in the literal truth of the story), but rather of 'secondary belief' in the 'secondary creation' of an internally consistent fictional world.

Of course, depending on the genre of fantastic fiction, a lot of this work has already been done for new authors by the establishment of well-accepted patterns or 'tropes' concerning how things tend to work in certain types of fictional worlds, and while deconstructing those patterns with an eye either to absurdity by way of commentary (e.g., Last Action Hero, One-Punch Man), or to providing an even more internally consistent and plausible if not precisely realistic world (e.g., Moore's Watchmen, Martin et al's Wild Cards, original stated purpose of New Universe) can be one way to tell a story, just using those tropes in a genre-consistent and unironic way also remains a valid choice.

You undermine the entire thesis of this thread with the words "in the moment" in your starting paraphrase. Indeed verisimilitude has nothing to do with making sure a line wide comic universe conforms to itself, and everything to do with individual stories making enough sense to suspend disbelief there and then.

[vitruvian]

You undermine the entire thesis of this thread with the words "in the moment" in your starting paraphrase. Indeed verisimilitude has nothing to do with making sure a line wide comic universe conforms to itself, and everything to do with individual stories making enough sense to suspend disbelief there and then.

For suspending disbelief in a continued story, the other parts of the story are wholly relevant.

There's also the factor that I am really more interested in Tolkien's concept of secondary belief, which is indeed clearly dependent on internal consistency of the entire fictional world... so it is desirable if not strictly necessary that the lay of Beren and Luthien fit in with the chronology of the Ages, not just that it read well in itself.

Obviously, this is more easily accomplished with a single author, or even a shared universe with a more restricted set of approved authors as with the Wild Cards series, than with an ever revolving crew of creators as with the major comic book universes, and it is more than reasonable to make some allowances for that.... but that doesn't mean that consistency between titles from a publisher who actually markets their stories in terms of crossovers, events, connections, and yes, continuity, shouldn't be expected to some level. If you're going to sell readers on the MU on the premise that it's one big connected story, then it is incumbent to deliver on that promise as much as is reasonably possible.

[JackDaw]

You undermine the entire thesis of this thread with the words "in the moment" in your starting paraphrase. Indeed verisimilitude has nothing to do with making sure a line wide comic universe conforms to itself, and everything to do with individual stories making enough sense to suspend disbelief there and then.

I don’t agree.

Read in context “in the moment” surely refers to the specific time a reader is experiencing the story.

There is nothing impossible about notion that readers present reading experience being effected by previous stories, overall world setting, existing continuity, etc.

In fact...it’s patently obvious that many readers present enjoyment (or otherwise) depends on past reading. How many times here have we seen people peed off because they believed characters are acting against expectations created from past stories?

[JKtheMac]

I don’t agree.

Read in context “in the moment” surely refers to the specific time a reader is experiencing the story.

There is nothing impossible about notion that readers present reading experience being effected by previous stories, overall world setting, existing continuity, etc.

In fact...it’s patently obvious that many readers present enjoyment (or otherwise) depends on past reading. How many times here have we seen people peed off because they believed characters are acting against expectations created from past stories?

Of course there is. I give you the Big Two you seem to believe are doing something wrong. They don't even try to do it because it is indeed impossible to do, and not only that counterproductive for them to attempt.

[JackDaw]

Of course there is. I give you the Big Two you seem to believe are doing something wrong. They don't even try to do it because it is indeed impossible to do, and not only that counterproductive for them to attempt.

I actually think you may be right on that, JK. (That DC and Marvel have evolved a style of storytelling over the years that works after a fashion, and it’s gone past the point where they could make radical changes without losing significant numbers of sales.)

[JKtheMac]

For suspending disbelief in a continued story, the other parts of the story are wholly relevant.

There's also the factor that I am really more interested in Tolkien's concept of secondary belief, which is indeed clearly dependent on internal consistency of the entire fictional world... so it is desirable if not strictly necessary that the lay of Beren and Luthien fit in with the chronology of the Ages, not just that it read well in itself.

Obviously, this is more easily accomplished with a single author, or even a shared universe with a more restricted set of approved authors as with the Wild Cards series, than with an ever revolving crew of creators as with the major comic book universes, and it is more than reasonable to make some allowances for that.... but that doesn't mean that consistency between titles from a publisher who actually markets their stories in terms of crossovers, events, connections, and yes, continuity, shouldn't be expected to some level. If you're going to sell readers on the MU on the premise that it's one big connected story, then it is incumbent to deliver on that promise as much as is reasonably possible.

It is incumbent to maintain an illusion so that the current story is enjoyable. Nothing more. If the reader examines the illusion closely then they need to be prepared to think like an illusionist, because otherwise they will be disappointed. The only person disappointed by a magic trick is the person that sneers when they know how it is done. The average pundit is delighted and other magicians appreciate the craft. It is the middle ground that contains the unhappy cynic.

[vitruvian]

It is incumbent to maintain an illusion so that the current story is enjoyable. Nothing more. If the reader examines the illusion closely then they need to be prepared to think like an illusionist, because otherwise they will be disappointed. The only person disappointed by a magic trick is the person that sneers when they know how it is done. The average pundit is delighted and other magicians appreciate the craft. It is the middle ground that contains the unhappy cynic.

That's a bad analogy, since everyone is disappointed by a magic trick where the magician fails to maintain the illusion, and most, far from sneering, are thoroughly impressed by those that do pull it off even if they later learn how it was done. Likewise, I've never heard of anyone sneering at how creators succeeded in making their creations internally consistent, for example criticizing Tolkien for how he used philology in the construction of his legendarium, but only being all the more laudatory. The best art, whether a magic trick or a series of published stories, sustains close examination rather than falling apart under it... although I suppose your statement that the reader needs to think like an illusionist (or in this case, a writer) in order to continue to enjoy a story under close examination is fair enough.

But I'll say again, everyone with any critical faculties sneers when they fail to maintain an illusion... and part of maintaining that illusion for a continued/connected story is indeed a certain minimum consistency with the other parts of the story, for the simple reason that anyone who remembers the other parts of the story does not want to be 'taken out of it' (i.e., the illusion shattered, even if only for a moment) by a glaring inconsistency.

[GrandEleven]

There's no substitute for actually owning the material in question, IMHO.

Not only that, but there's a solid 6 month delay.

[Killerbee911]

I think everybody has duck around it .REBOOT IT put in cohesive rules and clean up the history but since companies seem to be afraid of that. Restart the Ultimate line it work before it will work again

[theoneandonly]

well the current status of x men is particularly incoherent as to the timeline of events.

[catbellysqueezer]

Include ant-man in everything.

[JackDaw]

I think everybody has duck around it .REBOOT IT put in cohesive rules and clean up the history but since companies seem to be afraid of that. Restart the Ultimate line it work before it will work again

I was always a bit surprised that DC didn’t have a go and replicating success of Marvel ultimate line.

Their Earth 2 efforts have always seemed to lack the conviction that Marvel brought to bear on the Ultimate line. And the DC All Star comics were seemingly never intended to run much past a dozen issues each.

I know Mark Millar had planned a very long Superman run that he was keen to see through...60 issues or more..and if I was “DC”, I would have signed him up to do just that on proviso that he was set in its own continuity...that could have been first title in DC’s equivalent (to Ultimate) range of comics.

[Killerbee911]

I was always a bit surprised that DC didn’t have a go and replicating success of Marvel ultimate line.

DC actually did Ultimate thing with the Nu52, Which if in hindsight had they done as separate line would have been better choice for them given the end result

[JKtheMac]

As this thread has picked back up I will reopen the old discussion.

That's a bad analogy...

No its an OK analogy, especially as you understood my point. As an analogy it just can’t be stretched to cover your point:

But I'll say again, everyone with any critical faculties sneers when they fail to maintain an illusion... and part of maintaining that illusion for a continued/connected story is indeed a certain minimum consistency with the other parts of the story, for the simple reason that anyone who remembers the other parts of the story does not want to be 'taken out of it' (i.e., the illusion shattered, even if only for a moment) by a glaring inconsistency.

You do indeed make a good point that this kind of line wide illusion has differences and that it is not unreasonable for readers to compare different parts of the universe. However, you bring up a key issue that bears closer examination.

The idea of shattering the illusion or being ‘taken out’ of the story is a tricky one. Especially for somebody like me that is very rarely ‘in’ the story in this way. What you and many others are describing when they talk about this is a personal thing. Everyone seems to have different criteria for what causes them to be ‘taken out’ of the story. The thing they have in common is a personal sense that the story has somehow broken an expectation.

Writers can’t stop this happening. It is a reader thing. The writer is seeking to immerse you in the moment and they are using their craft to carry you along, but even great writers can’t carry everyone with them. Their ideal reader will not perfectly match anyone in the real world.

Expectations shift with factors like genre and context. What a character may do in a comedy may be entirely different to how they may act in an action focused story. Look at the different portrayals of Deadpool or Ant-Man. The criteria that the various writers are working to are entirely based on the context. From a technical context the characters are changed because of the way the story makes use of them. Not to mention how they may be used in plot driven stories as opposed to character driven ones.

If writers have a conviction that in their story the reader’s expectations should be different to other stories of a particular character, their job isn’t to change the entire story to make it fit. Their job is to reframe the character in their story such that it feels natural for the character to act differently here.

The reader that in the cold light of day criticises comedic, character driven Ant-Man for not exactly matching their expectations based on earlier plot driven stories, isn’t highlighting an error on behalf of the writers. They are correctly noticing the shift in genre, tone or story type, but expressing an unrealistic expectation that two entirely different stories can ever entirely reconcile.

Take your Tolkien comparison. That is collection of stories designed to maintain the same tone and genre, with self-supporting aims.

What Tolkien manages brilliantly is to mix the plot-driven story of the war, with the personal character driven story of Frodo. That’s no mean feat within a single story. Especially in framing Frodo’s increasingly dark journey to reflect his inward journey.

Tolkien can only do this because the rest of the characters are separated from Frodo and Sam. We don’t fully notice that the two parallel stories are running with different storytelling modes and with different expectations.

That is Tolkien’s craft at work. He is using Mordor as both a psychological backdrop for Frodo’s inner struggle and a plot driven antagonist setting in the ongoing war. He even has the stories intersect to maintain the illusion that they are the same wider story. They are not really the same.

Nobody standing at the gates of Mordor waiting for the army to emerge is thinking “any minute now we are about to be attacked by the external reflection of Frodo’s inner struggles”. Pointing this out only serves to highlight his craft not to show how Tolkien cheated or did something wrong.

[skyvolt2000]

I think everybody has duck around it .REBOOT IT put in cohesive rules and clean up the history but since companies seem to be afraid of that. Restart the Ultimate line it work before it will work again

With good reason.

Reboot has two meanings-

For SOME it means going back to DAY ONE where POC, LGBT & WOMEN did not lead books. As many of those folks were no around day one. Especially the kids in Champions. Who so many hate.


However the REALITY is if you call for a full REBOOT-it opens Pandora's BOX.

The FIRST X-Men team can be Logan, Storm, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Beast & Kitty.

The FIRST Avengers can be Panther, Thor, Cap America, Hulk & the FIRST Cap Marvel-Carol Danvers

Fantastic Four can be Reed, Sue, Ben and Sue's adopt brother-Johnny who looks like Killmonger.

Iron Man's first time out can be due to Tony and his daughter-RIRI building that suit.

And how many books are you going to have to publish to update EVERYBODY who had a book. Even if you limit to guys whose books lasted 25 and more-that list is LONG.

Quasar, Nova, Dazzler, New Warriors, Darkhawk, Deathlok, Spider-Woman, Moon Knight, Punisher and so on. What about the tv and movie guys-Luke Cage & GOTG?

Then you have the question of how long do you wait to introduce Jubliee, Cannonball, Miles & Moon Girl's generations?

Do these fans not matter? And unlike that other vocal group-those fans are not going to throw fits-they are going to LEAVE and not come back. Ask DC. The line of fans they alienated is longer than Marvels.