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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    I mean she's out there in charge of Star Wars, right? If people don't like the way it's going they're going to blame her. Force Awakens was the only movie I really liked from all the new stuff but I dislike the others for specific reasons to those movies. I just hope it doesn't turn into one of those things where if you thought the Ghostbusters remake stunk it's because they're women.
    Nah, like I said KK does deserve some of the blame because she's in charge of Lucasfilm.

    There's legitimate criticism but there's tons of click bait nonsense on YouTube. Because they're so many their voices tend to be the loudest.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Is there misogyny in "geek culture" sure it's everywhere and does some misogynist hijack the conversation? Most definitely and they're usually the loudest voices but that doesn't mean all criticism at Kathleen Kennedy is misogynist. She's the head and face of the company and some people are unhappy so of course she's going to get the blame. The closet parallels to her right now with the same situation are straight white males Zack Snyder and Michael Bay Snyder was hated by some fans and blamed for the current state of the DCEU with those unhappy with it and Bay for Transformers. So basically to quote Abe Simpson.

    It's different from Snyder and Bay because those guys actually made the movies. No one even talks about the guys behind behind the scenes at WB and Paramount. The guys at WB in particular deserve a lot of criticism for the way they handled Justice League and the DCEU as a whole (the Justice League mess directly mirrors what happened with Solo).

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It's different from Snyder and Bay because those guys actually made the movies. No one even talks about the guys behind behind the scenes at WB and Paramount. The guys at WB in particular deserve a lot of criticism for the way they handled Justice League and the DCEU as a whole (the Justice League mess directly mirrors what happened with Solo).
    Plus Snyder and Bay directed multiple movies. If you don't like Suicide Squad you can blame it on Snyder because he's the guy who made the other movies you don't like...

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I wonder who some fans would rather have in charge? Lucas is of course an obvious answer, but I seriously doubt he'd be willing to come back, especially since his retirement allowed him to remarry and-apart from showing up to film premieres-seems to be comfortable away from the spotlight (I'm not sure he really wanted to be in the spotlight in the first place, he's always striked me as a sort of shy person in most interviews).

    Or, in his own words (From an NYT interview around the time he retired):"Why would I make any more, when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?"

    Wonder if he warned Kathleen what she was getting into...


    Dave Filoni? He's currently running the animation branch.

    Kevin Feige I think is kind of busy at the moment, but he is a big fan. Granted, the MCU had a slightly rocky start as well at times, with Iron Man 2 and having to recast the Hulk. If I remember correctly, wasn't he actually booed at an SDCC once?
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  5. #20
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Nobody is flawless, but a good 90% of the hate seems obvious blistering misogyny. And also very obvious racism because this only started once people of colour started to get big parts in Star Wars movies.
    Basically, this.

    But it also doesn't help that Kathleen Kennedy feeds the trolls at times with quotes like this:

    "I would never just seize on saying, 'Well, this is a franchise that's appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.'"
    Not saying she's wrong by any means but it definitely feeds misogynists who label her as anti-man.

  6. #21
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    The move to make a Star Wars movie every year is a bad idea that will lead to franchise burnout.

    But that decision was probably made by the stockholders and KK has no real say in the matter.

    Put me in the camp that thinks the beefing is blistering misogyny. Nothing the current regime has done is as bad as
    the prequels.

    Anybody remember Lucas' fetish for repackaging home releases with an increasing array of CGI add ons for no good reason?

    There are about as many versions of the original trilogy as there are versions of Street Fighter 2.

    People are quick to forget.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    It's different from Snyder and Bay because those guys actually made the movies. No one even talks about the guys behind behind the scenes at WB and Paramount. The guys at WB in particular deserve a lot of criticism for the way they handled Justice League and the DCEU as a whole (the Justice League mess directly mirrors what happened with Solo).
    Because very few fans know the names of the executives at WB and Paramount while Snyder was the face for the DCEU, Bay for Transformers, Kennedy for Lucasfilms, or one doing well Feige at Marvel Studios. Those are the people viewed by the public as setting the tone for those franchises and thus get the blame when it hit the fan and recently since Justice League WB executives have been getting blamed. Kennedy is also not the first head of a Studio to get the blame both Amy Pascal when head of Sony and Tom Rothman when head of Fox were blamed for the failures because they were seen as setting the tone. Yes there are those who hate Kennedy simply because she is a woman but it's there are also many who simply dislike the direction she is taking Star Wars. George Lucas might be getting a Renaissance of love due to nostalgia but 10 years ago when he was in the drivers seat it wasn't chocolate and roses there are documentaries exploring fans disappointment of his handling the Star Wars Franchise.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Because very few fans know the names of the executives at WB and Paramount while Snyder was the face for the DCEU, Bay for Transformers, Kennedy for Lucasfilms, or one doing well Feige at Marvel Studios. Those are the people viewed by the public as setting the tone for those franchises and thus get the blame when it hit the fan and recently since Justice League WB executives have been getting blamed. Kennedy is also not the first head of a Studio to get the blame both Amy Pascal when head of Sony and Tom Rothman when head of Fox were blamed for the failures because they were seen as setting the tone. Yes there are those who hate Kennedy simply because she is a woman but it's there are also many who simply dislike the direction she is taking Star Wars. George Lucas might be getting a Renaissance of love due to nostalgia but 10 years ago when he was in the drivers seat it wasn't chocolate and roses there are documentaries exploring fans disappointment of his handling the Star Wars Franchise.
    Quoted in agreement.

  9. #24
    Incredible Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    The problem I see with the Star Wars franchise is a lack of direction or a plan. It's a free-for-all with each director doing what they want. Kevin Fiege has an easier time since he can cherry pick from Marvel comics which creates a framework for building the MCU. There's no one at the helm managing what the story and where they are going. That person shouldn't be Kennedy and their creative committee doesn't have anyone with the background to run a movie franchise.

    If you didn't like TLJ, then who do you blame Rian Johnson for creating the story or the person who approved him doing so and gave him the go-ahead?

    In terms of production, the issue Disney is going to have is managing budgets. Having to fire so many writers and directors (going all the way back to Josh Trank being fired) means unnecessary costs. But cost is likely why Lucasfilm doesn't have someone running the franchise who actually understands Star Wars.
    Last edited by ClanAskani; 05-29-2018 at 10:31 AM.

  10. #25
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Man, I remember during the THX VHS releases, everyone hated Lucas for changing the films and he ruined their childhood.

    Then during SE releases, everyone hated Lucas for changing the films and he ruined their childhood.

    Then during the prequel era, everyone hated Lucas because they weren't what they wanted and he ruined their childhood.

    Now people want him back? Because their childhoods are ruined again? How many childhoods do Star Wars fans have?

    I think it doesn't matter what anybody does at this point with further movies, there are going to be sets of fans not happy, no matter what.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 05-29-2018 at 11:04 AM.
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  11. #26
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The problem I see with the Star Wars franchise is a lack of direction or a plan. It's a free-for-all with each director doing what they want...
    This , Abrams started TFA with an Idea in his head of who was who and were he thought it was going, Then Johnson in TLJ seemed to ignore Abrams foreshadowing and make the movie he wanted and (my opinion) misused the personalities that Abrams created. Point being that there was no plan from the start as to what direction the new trilogy was going and they are going through directors in a bad way. The seems like bad management, and Kennedy is management.

    I don't think it's really a cost thing, if someone like Abrams were hired to plot out the entire new trilogy and then hire screen writers and directors to flesh it out, kind of like Lucas did the original trilogy, I think it would be a different story it it would not have cost that much in the long run. I don't believe that putting out a movie every year is damaging to the franchise either, Marvel Studios is trucking along putting 3 movies out a year at times. Kennedy is a great producer but seems to be the wrong person to head up a multi-movie franchise, as it is completely obvious she has no plan as to the direction of Star Wars.

    I would think that misogyny is a minority of the reasons for criticism for the movies as a large number of people who do not like where Star Wars is going does not even know who she is. As for the criticism of Kennedy I think it's at most 50/50.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    ....How many childhoods do Star Wars fans have?
    A lot, there are some that have never seen the original 77 to 83 versions, some that have never seen the THX VHS versions, The ones that grew up post prequels, and then those post special addition and now we are going to have those that will only know it post Disney buy out. There are generations of star wars fans having their childhood in different eras in the progression of Star Wars.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 05-29-2018 at 12:15 PM.
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  12. #27
    Incredible Member ClanAskani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post

    I don't think it's really a cost thing, if someone like Abrams were hired to plot out the entire new trilogy and then hire screen writers and directors to flesh it out, kind of like Lucas did the original trilogy, I think it would be a different story it it would not have cost that much in the long run.
    The problem is how long it would take someone to develop all of the required material. There was an initial Writers Room which developed a framework for the movies (which included Simon Kinberg and Michael Arndt) (Kinberg talks about it here: http://collider.com/star-wars-simon-...s-involvement/)

    But they only met for a week - why? Because it's expensive to hire this type of talent for an extended period of time. And they only do a high level view. And what they came up with was thrown out when Michael Arndt's first draft was too expensive to film. Rian Johnson is quoted as saying he was expecting to see some sort of outline and he was told he could do whatever he wanted. Cost was likely the issue here as well. Writers like Rian Johnson don't write treatments on spec, they have to be paid to write a single word. The time Rian worked on his first draft (and TLJ producer Ram Bergman said 90% of Rian's first draft was what you saw on the screen) was only a few weeks. They didn't waste time or money on pre-production planning to figure out stuff like who is Snoke or what are the Knights of Ren. They only wrote what Rian wanted to write for his story.

    JJ's mystery box approach works for tv because they do essentially the same thing - throw a bunch of ideas on a white board for the current story and don't worry about the details. Then months or years later, some other writer will deal with fleshing things out. Questions like who is Snoke, who is the First Order, how did Ben Solo fall to the Dark Side, who are Rey's parents and so forth take far too much time. Sure, you can quickly toss something together, but they need to completely flesh everything out. The tv show runner mentality is to avoid just coming up with answers when someone else later on might have a better idea.

    Someone like JJ would need to be on staff full time to figure all of this out and would get an exec prod credit on everything. That splits the money on the backend being split between the other producers. That's where it gets expensive.
    Last edited by ClanAskani; 05-29-2018 at 12:55 PM.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Man, I remember during the THX VHS releases, everyone hated Lucas for changing the films and he ruined their childhood.

    Then during SE releases, everyone hated Lucas for changing the films and he ruined their childhood.

    Then during the prequel era, everyone hated Lucas because they weren't what they wanted and he ruined their childhood.

    Now people want him back? Because their childhoods are ruined again? How many childhoods do Star Wars fans have?

    I think it doesn't matter what anybody does at this point with further movies, there are going to be sets of fans not happy, no matter what.
    Did the THX release really change anything though? I think it was one of the first time the films were really available easily in widescreen outside of the laserdisc, so some of the details cut from the "pan and scan" (or since the THX releases "fullscreen" were also scanned differently), so there might be some assumption that Lucas added items there, especially after 1997.

    For example, early VHS of EMPIRE in pan and scan, during the Star Destroyers having some difficulty navigating the asteroid field, only showed Needa and the other guy reporting to Vader. The THX version though showed the other Imperial captain whose destroyer got hit by the asteroid, looking alarmed and fizzing out. So some people might have thought that was 'added' instead of simply out of frame.
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  14. #29
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClanAskani View Post
    The problem is how long it would take someone to develop all of the required material. There was an initial Writers Room which developed a framework for the movies (which included Simon Kinberg and Michael Arndt) (Kinberg talks about it here: http://collider.com/star-wars-simon-...s-involvement/)

    But they only met for a week - why? Because it's expensive to hire this type of talent for an extended period of time. And they only do a high level view. And what they came up with was thrown out when Michael Arndt's first draft was too expensive to film. Rian Johnson is quoted as saying he was expecting to see some sort of outline and he was told he could do whatever he wanted. Cost was likely the issue here as well. Writers like Rian Johnson don't write treatments on spec, they have to be paid to write a single word. The time Rian worked on his first draft (and TLJ producer Ram Bergman said 90% of Rian's first draft was what you saw on the screen) was only a few weeks. They didn't waste time or money on pre-production planning to figure out stuff like who is Snoke or what are the Knights of Ren. They only wrote what Rian wanted to write for his story.

    JJ's mystery box approach works for tv because they do essentially the same thing - throw a bunch of ideas on a white board for the current story and don't worry about the details. Then months or years later, some other writer will deal with fleshing things out. Questions like who is Snoke, who is the First Order, how did Ben Solo fall to the Dark Side, who are Rey's parents and so forth take far too much time. Sure, you can quickly toss something together, but they need to completely flesh everything out. The tv show runner mentality is to avoid just coming up with answers when someone else later on might have a better idea.

    Someone like JJ would need to be on staff full time to figure all of this out and would get an exec prod credit on everything. That splits the money on the backend being split between the other producers. That's where it gets expensive.
    JJ was an Exec Producer on The last Jedi, he also wrote an outline to the entire trilogy, according to Daisy Ridley in interview with Le Magazine Geek.

    "Here's what I think I know. J.J. wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and J. J. Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn't keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."
    and Abrams is now writing 2 of the 3 movies anyway it would seem that it cost them more not to have a writer outline (rough draft) the entire trilogy.
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  15. #30
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There was at least a plan in place for Episode 9 to use Leia in a major role, at least as far as a rough outline of Disney's plans were concerned. However, Carrie's death pretty much messed up whatever plan they had in place for 9-including Trevorrow's draft which had to be rewritten from scratch. I think he wanted Luke to live as well, perhaps requesting for Rian/Kennedy to change the ending of TLJ. Maybe that's part of the "creative differences" that led to him getting sacked.
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