MAN OF STEEL (2018) Event mini-series Discussion thread (SPOILERS)

[Hypestyle]

what sort of power stunts and rescues has superman displayed so far?

[vitruvian]

This is a criticism of Jews by anti-semites, though. See this article from Haaretz.

Excerpt:

Indeed, like the word “cosmopolitan,” the term “globalist” echoes the ideology of Adolf Hitler, who fomented against the Jews as “international elements that “conduct their business everywhere,” thus harming and undermining good people who are “bounded to their soil, to the Fatherland.”

It's also a criticism often made of Western imperialist and mercantile powers such as the British Empire and the Belgians - with some degree of truth to it, but only because such powers historically went way beyond simply trading with other nations to actually taking control of other nations and their territory, setting up colonies and dependent states governed by the empire, often with systems of slave labor and rampant exploitation (e.g., Belgian Congo). The only problem with this comparison, of course, is that Rogol is told authoritatively by the Circle that (in their view at least) the Kryptonians have not in fact engaged in any such aggressive behavior, which would surely include any colonial efforts on inhabited worlds, so one imagines at most they've leveraged their advanced technology in a few deals similar to the legend of the Manhattan purchase.

[vitruvian]

Ok I get the connection now. Bendis may be going that way. But I just had a feeling that he was going to make Zaar actually have a rational reason for his hatred. Not have it be just xenophobic racism/speciesism. I was assuming that Rogol Zaar’s people had felt the brunt of Krypton’s empire kinda like India under the British Empire or how Native Americans where slaughtered when the more Europeans arrived. He’s someone who has seen how powerful and dangerous a Kryptonian could be under a yellow sun. If that’s the case he kind of has a point. A planet full of potential Supermen could be disastrous for any planet standing in their way. It just takes one Zod to enslave a planet. I’m not saying that he’s right to want to kill all Kryptonians but he would be coming from a place of pain rather than just unjustified hatred.

Except if the Circle is to be believed and the Kryptonians have not been aggressive towards other worlds, then their actions (and presumably their effects) have been nothing like those of the British Empire in India, much less the conquest of the West and genocide of Native American tribes. Both involved taking over someone else's territory, which surely counts as aggression.

[vitruvian]

See, I don’t get this. Krypton has to be alive and exploiting for any of Rogols arguments to mean anything. If as you say Krypton exploded long ago, what the hell is Rogol attacking Superman and apparently Earth, if there is no Krypton. Revenge? Then Rogol is a lunatic. There is no apparent reason for Rogol to even still be harbouring any vindictiveness anymore after so long.

I was actually saying that his motivation for somehow causing Krypton to explode, if they were still isolationist before the end as we've been previously shown, made no sense. But yes, it follows that any attempt to kill the last few survivors decades later has that much less justification.

[vitruvian]

I don't think Krypton exploded all *that* long ago, because Superman would be a lot older than he is, if that's the case. As for Rogol, I think that his problems with Krypton that we've seen so far are likely just the start. He may have a run-in with Zod that's dictated by (or not refused by) the High Council / Council of Elders against him personally that leaves him to set things in motion that destroy Krypton - or at the very least lead him to swear (in front of Jor-El, somehow) that he'll "kill every Kryptonian in existence for this!!" - that kinda thing.

Except if this whole bit is happening in Jor-El and Zod's time... and that's certainly implied in #2... then we still have the conundrum: is Krypton at this point in time trading with other worlds in an expanding (and in Rogol's view, exploitive) way, or is it an isolationist world where Jor-El can't find an escape vessel for love or money and needs to build Jor-El's little rocket pod himself, in secrecy and under fear of censure from the isolationist Science Council? Can't really be both.

[vitruvian]

I also see how a defeated race that Rogol comes from could be horrified by Kryptonians spreading an Empire. I think it would be as terrifying as Galactus arriving and setting up his planet sucking machine. Imagine a ship load of Supermen, say 200 or 2000, suddenly unloads in your city flying around doing whatever they like, like a swarm of locusts from “Independance Day” movie. None of them are like Superman of Earth, who had no ethical background about saving people. All the Kryptonian Supermen and women would have no feeling when shots bounce off them. Who knows what Kryptons trade style would be? Zod is my yardstick. A Kryptonian, not Earthified, could be like Doomsday.

Reread #1. The Circle said they have not done that, so it didn't happen to Rogol's world. Not at the hands of the Kryptonians, anyway.

[vitruvian]

Actually I wonder if Doomsday won't be revealed as one of the reasons Rogol Zaar has a mad on for Krypton. Perhaps in the past during it's expansionist past if Krypton didn't use Doomsday as some sentient WMD. Perhaps Doomsday was used to kill his people.

Nope.
NoAggression.jpg
Because killing people with Doomsday would certainly be aggression.

[vitruvian]

An interesting detail.
I don't like it when a Superman story contains references to other super-characters. In fact, I hate it when it happens. I have always thought that the Superman universe should be entirely self-contained.

However, I love the circle of entities created by Bendis - the guys who apparently are the bosses of Rogol Zaar. Each of them is a pre-existing character (an Oan, a Tamaranian, a Rannian, a Thanagarian and the ice creature whose race I don't know) but for some reason - maybe Bendis' way of approaching them is strong enough to convince me - I "feel" them as a part of Superman's universe. MOS could work as a perfect cornerstone to rebuild the cosmic part of the DC Universe. In fact, if, absurdly, one day they decided to adapt MOS into a movie, it would be a great way to introduce characters like Adam Strange and Hawkman, too.

Rogol Zaar is basically what you get when the Hound from Game of Thrones decided to pursue his personal agenda.

So you hate it when his son or cousin or best friend show up?

[Superlad93]

He did have charm and wit, as well as wisdom.

And Clark's a worried father even in Bendis' two issues, in fact, everything you read in Man of Steel with Clark (the wit, the charm) is a front for the fact he IS a worried father, so I fail to see your point.

I think all they mean is that the "worried dad" aspect isn't the most overpowering part on display most of the time (it wasn't all the time, but it was most of the time). Yes, he's depicted as having his thoughts never far from Jon or Lois, but he's also very focused on his job at the Planet, the possible systemic issues that lead to the rash of fires around the city, and being such a powerful force in the city (and world) that villains are either to scared to be there or to scared to speak within ear shot of him.

And the wit is shown to be multifaceted. In some situations--like with Hal--yes it's a defensive tactic that he unintentionally uses (very refreshing to be talking about the physiology of Superman's actions and words in a modern comic!), but it's not presented as such an out of the ordinary thing for him to say or do that anyone else in the comics have comment on it being odd, so we can only assume that this particular wit is part of his default personality.

And may I say, outside of Superman's personality, Superman's world has gotten quite a boost in this run too. The city, the people, the Planet, his dead world, other alien worlds and civilizations, and how the people of Earth and other alien worlds (heroes, villains, and normal people alike) bounce off him has had special care applied to it. In just two issues the world an character building has been quite strong.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

Except if this whole bit is happening in Jor-El and Zod's time... and that's certainly implied in #2... then we still have the conundrum: is Krypton at this point in time trading with other worlds in an expanding (and in Rogol's view, exploitive) way, or is it an isolationist world where Jor-El can't find an escape vessel for love or money and needs to build Jor-El's little rocket pod himself, in secrecy and under fear of censure from the isolationist Science Council? Can't really be both.

Yes, I would also say that the flashback events of Man of Steel take place during Jor-El's lifetime, but not before. In talking to Appa Ali Apsa in #2, Lord Gandelo name drops both "Myand'r" and "Sardath."

Myand'r is Starfire's father and Sardath is Alanna Strange's father, so since neither has been shown to have any lifespan longer than a typical human, we're talking no more than 40 years ago, probably.

The only time-related caption in MOS besides "then" for the flashbacks was on page 1 of #1: "many years ago." This could be a flowery way of saying "centuries" or "millennia," but I think it should be taken at face value and should just mean "decades."

[vitruvian]

I'm not going to argue that. I'm going to argue that no one cares. This isn't something that HAS to be undone (neither is the Lois and Jon situation, at that. That's a finite storyline with a beginning and an eventual end, its nothing that needs to be undone, just resolved). Because Krypton's history is often changed up, when its not flat out ignored. Let's stop pretending there's some singular vast, detailed, coherent history for it and always has been. Its ALWAYS been subject to alteration, regardless the era.

Equating this slight to Krypton's history as defecating on Superman is high comedy. Everyone who's been a fan long enough to do some amount of research on the history knows how altered Krypton has been throughout the ages, and in far more drastic manners than this.


Wait, what? Its not a convoluted mess? Since when? The current continuity across the board makes no sense. Its been a product of discussion for two years now with some of fandom trying to make sense of it, and others just saying forget trying and just move forward. You greatly exaggerate what Rebirth accomplished in that regard. It plopped the old history back in, in a very loose and general sense. In fact Johns utilized the same thing you're accusing Bendis and Didio of: ignoring continuity. The old history happened but a lot of the differences in the verse make it so that things couldn't have happened in the same way anymore. How is it all explained? Its not. Its ignored. Its just accepted and creators and fans alike move on. Yet for some reason Superman fans will be sheep for accepting this particular alteration? One that actually looks like it will be fleshed out and explored? That's a pretty monumental double-standard you have working.

I'm fine with them retconning the history of Krypton, actually. I don't look at it as ruining anything.

However, if Krypton was actually this expanding trade empire right before it exploded, that would mean that hundreds if not thousands of Kryptonians would have been off planet on a regular basis, and that they had a fleet of merchant ships, so if Jor-El still had enough warning of the planetary explosion to send Kal-El away, he had enough warning for an evacuation to get going. Even if the Science Council was still down on his warnings or even censoring them, they wouldn't have been able to keep a bunch of people from getting away once the quakes started, because, again, ongoing trade with other worlds argues lots of spaceships on hand.

The story doesn't necessarily need to be consistent with past stories if they are explicitly retconning things, but it does need to be logically consistent with itself.

[Sacred Knight]

Superman's outward personality in MOS is not a front. That's what Bendis is doing so well. He's writing a Superman who yes, is sad and angry over being apart from his family. And he will let it out in proper doses. But surrounding that, he's still being Superman. He's still saving people with a smile on his face and with warmth that isn't an act. He's being who he is. He can put his own stuff aside to do what he appointed himself to do and to be for the people a long time ago. He's overcoming in a tumultuous time in his personal life. Just as Superman would. He's writing a Superman whose life both in a way does, and at the same time in a way does not, revolve around his family. it does in the sense that obviously he loves them more than anyone in the world. But it doesn't in the fact that he is still Superman, and he still loves everyone else and is there for them because that's just what he does and who he is. Its as natural as breathing, and personal issues don't stop that. That's how you write Superman with a family. You acknowledge that unlike a normal father/husband, in a substantial way he simply cannot be theirs and theirs alone. I think Bendis has achieved showing that in just two issues.

I'm fine with them retconning the history of Krypton, actually. I don't look at it as ruining anything.

However, if Krypton was actually this expanding trade empire right before it exploded, that would mean that hundreds if not thousands of Kryptonians would have been off planet on a regular basis, and that they had a fleet of merchant ships, so if Jor-El still had enough warning of the planetary explosion to send Kal-El away, he had enough warning for an evacuation to get going. Even if the Science Council was still down on his warnings or even censoring them, they wouldn't have been able to keep a bunch of people from getting away once the quakes started, because, again, ongoing trade with other worlds argues lots of spaceships on hand.

The story doesn't necessarily need to be consistent with past stories if they are explicitly retconning things, but it does need to be logically consistent with itself.

Oh I agree, there needs to be sense to the extinction whenever you change the means. Personally, I think this is workable by still keeping the natural element to Krypton's destruction. That there is something genuinely wrong with the planet, and its something that Zaar simply exploits and exacerbates. In such a scenario, you can still have the classic set-up where Jor-El warns the Council but in their hubris they ignore him, hence the lack of any sort of evacuation. Meanwhile, Zaar orchestrates a destruction that happens quicker than even Jor-El's caluclations.

Later, as far as the colonists go, I think they get around this with Rogol Zaar pulling a Revenge of the Sith scenario. Once Krypton is destroyed, he hunts down and kills the remainder to the best of his ability.

[vitruvian]

To be honest I don’t really care one way or the other for the particulars of Krypton. Hell Johns had them as a spacefaring Empire with Lex utilizing an old warship in Up, Up, and Away. I think even New 52 Krypton had a space program that got shut down. There were also hints that Johns was going to have Brainiac be responsible for Krypton’s destruction. All of these I was fine with, and I’m fine now with Bendis linking Krypton’s destruction to Rogal. As long as Bendis doesn’t change the core (Doomed Planet, Desperate Scientists, Last Hope, Kindly Couple, Superman) I really don’t care whether Krypton were spacefaring colonialists or xenophobic isolationists. Both have clear political overtones.

I agree with you that both are fine. However, the first option of colonial/trade empire (without a later isolationist phase) not only argues for a whole bunch of Kryptonian survivors scattered about in space, without some explanation for how they too got wiped out, it also raises the question of why Jor-El sends Kal-El to Earth in a tiny little pod as opposed to taking one of the larger available ships with the whole family to whatever destination seems best.

It's possible that Bendis has a good explanation in mind for these issues that will be revealed at a later date... but much as I like many aspects of his writing, his past performance doesn't really give me confidence that this will turn out to be the case, because that is exactly what he has promised but then failed to deliver multiple times.

[Superlad93]

Wow, the one of the aspects Bendis kept hyping--"what really happened to Krypton"--is getting such robust and thoughtful debate. That's genuinely nice to see. Everyone's making comparisons and asking well thought out and fair questions on something that strays from the normal Superman related questions. No matter where the run goes from here, I'm gonna take a mental note of this moment. It's nice.

In regrades to the question: suppose, Krypton's trading and expansion was done either remotely (via androids or automated trading ships) or with only select few knowing (Council)? Essentially you leave the general population utopian society but you don't tell them "how the sausage gets made" so to speak? So, when Jor-El comes along saying "yo, we're all gonna die and we've gotta get into some ships and get off this planet." They Council is like "ixnay on the (sh)ips-ay, Jor-El. We're isolationist *wink* remember?" This would fit into the idea of Jor-El knowing and having contact with Zaar before hand.

Edit: It would also fit into the whole hubris of the Council because they'd be more worried about keeping up the utopian look over anything else.

[vitruvian]

Wow, the one of the aspects Bendis kept hyping--"what really happened to Krypton"--is getting such robust and thoughtful debate. That's genuinely nice to see. Everyone's making comparisons and asking well thought out and fair questions on something that strays from the normal Superman related questions. No matter where the run goes from here, I'm gonna take a mental note of this moment. It's nice.

In regrades to the question: suppose, Krypton's trading and expansion was done either remotely (via androids or automated trading ships) or with only select few knowing (Council)? Essentially you leave the general population utopian society but you don't tell them "how the sausage gets made" so to speak? So, when Jor-El comes along saying "yo, we're all gonna die and we've gotta get into some ships and get off this planet." They Council is like "ixnay on the (sh)ips-ay, Jor-El. We're isolationist *wink* remember?" This would fit into the idea of Jor-El knowing and having contact with Zaar before hand.

Edit: It would also fit into the whole hubris of the Council because they'd be more worried about keeping up the utopian look over anything else.

That would require the Council not wishing to save themselves or their families either, you realize. Frankly, I find both that and the idea of them successfully keeping such a secret from everyone but Jor-El less believable (and worthy of willing suspension of disbelief) than Superman and kin getting their powers from a yellow sun, but YMMV.