MAN OF STEEL (2018) Event mini-series Discussion thread (SPOILERS)

[Sacred Knight]

Saw a argument over on Twitter about Mr. Oz saying Lois shouldn't be able to have had a child with Superman being bad writing, anyone else have thoughts on this? People in the Twitter thread are saying it's misogynist and it's a insult to Lois, I'm not disagreeing, just trying to wrap my head around that thought process.

I do disagree. This doesn't surprise me, they like to throw around the accusation like candy, but its not misogyny. It just means the guy did his historical homework. Bendis is playing off the very, very common past historically narrative that a Kryptonian and a human can't procreate. It seems to be being drawn attention to now as a plot point regarding Jon's existence. People have wondered if it might be brought up since he was created, and now it seems to be. It has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with tackling questions of genetics between two differing species.

As far as Jor-El himself, despite his crimes as Mr Oz., the last Superman had saw of him, he had just broken his staff and realized there was something messing with his mind. They were even in the process of a "moment" before Oz was teleported away again. So I don't see anything odd about their interaction here. Clark is still obviously wary and untrusting, but he at least knows he's not insane anymore. That fits with where we left off. The only thing not being acknowledged is the supposed mystery of what made Jor-El disappear at the end of the Oz Effect in the first place.

[KC]

Issue #5 was good except for how Bendis wrote Barry. "Caca Poo Poo" isn't something Barry (or any adult) would say.

[Sacred Knight]

Agreed, that was the first cringe-worth line of the series thus far. I don't mind staying with Barry being funny like in the New 52, but that was a bit too juvenile.

[HeroVladimir93]

Another good issue! Superman's fight with Rogol Zaar was amazing, with Hughes' art shining through. As they exchange blows, Superman tries to discover Rogol's plans and motivations, which I find incredibly in-character for him. I also liked that even when Supergirl and the Justice League get involved, Superman, being the protagonist, remains so on top of things that the other heroes defer to his leadership, if only out of respect.

I didn't like Jon's decision to go with his grandfather because it doesn't add up to the way he has portrayed so far. The only way this decision could be justified is if we looked at things from his perspective: despite the Kents and Jor-El starting off with the wrong foot in The Oz Effect, he wants to bond with his grandfather, hoping that maybe, just maybe, he can return him to the side of good. This is just speculation; I have no idea how will this factor into Peter J. Tomasi's upcoming Adventures of the Super Sons series. Either way, Clark and Lois are not happy with Jon's decision, because as they are his parents and he is just a minor. Family drama if there ever was one.

I thought Rogol Zaar and Jor-El would be morally ambiguous characters that would offer alternatives to Superman's classic heroism, but so far Bendis is portraying them as generic villains (genocide and kidnapping). Overall, this is a very good series and I can't wait to read the finale and the new books in July.

[GreatKungLao]

Kryptonian and human having problems with having kids is a concept that should've been tossed away from Superman mythos a long time ago. It's outdated. And Jor-El as Mr Oz had zero problems with Lois and Jon back in Oz Effect arc. In fact he liked both of them and never questioned the possibility of such alliance. So yeah, I'm on a side of those who says to Bendis to suck ass. That concept never made sense to me and it shouldn't be part of Superman in 2018.

Jon couldn't have powers inside of Lois because solar radiation did not touched him until he was born out in the open. So yeah, Lois caring a kryptonian child shouldn't be under question at all.

To be quite honest, I think that argument is constantly brought up only for a single purpose - to make Superman be with anyone else but Lois. And by anybody else I mean somebody physically "super" as him. Even though that logic is stupid, because if kryptonian and human can't have kids because of being two different races, than Superman shouldn't be able to have a family with anybody else but another kryptonian.

[adkal]

Kryptonian and human having problems with having kids is a concept that should've been tossed away from Superman mythos a long time ago. It's outdated.

In what way is it outdated? It's only really been around since the 80s, prior to that there were all sorts of stories of Superman having children with Lois (and others) (and usually with no need for red sun necklaces or alternative environments).

Jon couldn't have powers inside of Lois because solar radiation did not touched him until he was born out in the open. So yeah, Lois caring a kryptonian child shouldn't be under question at all.

Unless Lois stayed away from the sun, Jon would have been exposed to solar radiation while in the womb.

See, for example: https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnan...etal-eyesight/

Although it’s awfully dark inside the uterus, some photons of light still make it through your skin if you’re standing in the sun.

It's not just light, though. There are other spectrums bundled in the package from Sol that the planet gets exposed to, a number of which (at different times) have impacted Superman's powers, and so would affect Jon's development in utero.

[misslane]

What I love is the concept that against astronomical odds Lois and Clark, members of two totally different species, not only found love in one another, but also created a got damn miracle in the form of an impossible child. That, to me, is so very Superman. It's right up there with the idea that Jor-El and Lara created a single rocket that made an impossible journey, and against all odds landed within earshot of the two kindest people Earth had to offer. They saw a distinctly alien craft, and both bravely decided to rise what was inside. They brought up a virtual god with nothing more than their good nature and human ingenuity, and said god became a good man because of that.

[...]

That said, I can totally see where people are coming from if they're taking issue with Jor-El's next comment about the actual act of procreation with Clark being hazardous to Lois' heath. That holds no water once Clark opens a door without breaking it or breaths heavy without causing a hurricane.

But, and again this is maybe just be me, since our heroes are in direct opposition to him, and Jon is an actual thing that lives, Jor-El's literally proven wrong. Jon is a walking talking metaphorical middle finger to Jor-El's theories. Jor-El's just a dismissive *******, and that's okay because all evidence points to that being a thing we cool to think of him as since Oz Effect.

I much prefer how Man of Steel the movie handled this by making part of the House of El's ethos of hope their rebellion against conventional procreation and interspecies interaction. Jor-El and Lara break with the status quo on Krypton to produce a child and look to the stars for Krypton's future with enough humility to admit Krypton's failings. Instead of being dismissive, Jor-El saw promise in humans, and encouraged his son to not only link both civilizations together, but also to see in such a link the possibility for something greater than Krypton alone.

Zod: We'll sever the degenerative bloodlines that led us to this state.
Jor-El: And who will decide which bloodlines survive, Zod? You?

Jor-El: Artificial population control was established. [...] Every child was designed to fulfill a predetermined role in our society as a worker, a warrior, a leader, and so on. Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious. The element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended for him or her? What if a child aspired to something greater? You were the embodiment of that belief, Kal. Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. That's why we risked so much to save you.
Kal: Why didn't you come with me?
Jor-El: We couldn't, Kal. No matter how much we wanted to. No matter how much we loved you. Your mother, Lara, and I were a product of the failures of our world as much as Zod was tied to its fate.
Kal: So I'm alone.
Jo-El: No. You're as much a child of Earth now as you are of Krypton. You can embody the best of both worlds. A dream your mother and I dedicated our lives to preserve. The people of Earth are different from us, it's true. But, ultimately, I believe that's a good thing. They won't necessarily make the same mistakes we did. Not if you guide them, Kal. Not if you give them hope. That's what this symbol means. The symbol of the house of El means hope. Embodied within that hope is the fundamental belief in the potential of every person to be a force for good. That's what you can bring them.

Jor-El: We wanted you to learn what it meant to be human first so that one day, when the time was right, you would be the bridge between two peoples.

It's obviously within a writer's creative freedom to go their own way, and admittedly Bendis wasn't the first to use Jor-El in a far more malevolent manner than ever before, so his change of attitude fits this new characterization and functions within the narrative as an antagonist, it doesn't mean I have to like it. In fact, I hate it. I hated it when it was started in Rebirth, and I hate it now, especially writing Jon to be so insensitive to his parents and naive about the possible dangers. What is extra upsetting is that if all Jor-El wanted was to show Jon the universe, then (and maybe I missed this) why now? And why does how Jon was conceived have to be brought up as a preface to proposing that mission? When so many other of the fantastical aspects of Superman that defy conventional wisdom go unquestioned, raising the issue of human and Kryptonian mating in such an explicit way ("Ew" is right, Jon.) does feel unnecessary crude and cruel.

Worst of all is the portrayal of Jon though who is for some reason completely different from how Tomasi wrote him concerning his family. This only seemed like a cheap trick and forced reason to get him out of the book and create drama which... is something I was expecting from Bendis sadly.

Oh, and Barry's "caca poo poo" line cringed me to death.

Agreed.

[adkal]

... I thought the "effort to produce" him was about carrying Jon to term and going through labour, not about conceiving him...

Did I misread?

[misslane]

... I thought the "effort to produce" him was about carrying Jon to term and going through labour, not about conceiving him...

Did I misread?

I don't think so. It's just that by leaving it vague, it's left up to one's imagination about what Jor-El means, and he likely means all of the above: everything from conception to birth.

[adkal]

I don't think so. It's just that by leaving it vague, it's left up to one's imagination about what Jor-El means, and he likely means all of the above: everything from conception to birth.

I suppose the 'ew' and 'really' don't help in that regard.

[Truman Burbank]

Discussions over the problems of Kryptonian/human conception just tell me that Convergence is all the way out. This was explained in the two-parter - the dome was blocking Clark's powers, and by extension any that would have developed in Jon since he was conceived in the dome. The post-Crisis crutch was always that Clark's powers would be the hurdle; without them, the impediment to a child was gone.

I'd express further thoughts, but it's clear the groupthink has only gotten stronger, and I don't want to get accused of "complaining just to complain" again.

[vasir12]

This might be the first issue that I don't really like. I just can't understand why Jon would do a complete 180 with a guy responsible for a lot of death. Him also disregarding his parents for a man like that is also out of character. And for the present day we get a lot of redundant lines and nothing really happening. I hope we get a reason he didn't kill Superman on the moon but I don't think we will.

I'm also not a fan of this issue's art. Seemed rushed.

[adkal]

Discussions over the problems of Kryptonian/human conception just tell me that Convergence is all the way out. This was explained in the two-parter - the dome was blocking Clark's powers, and by extension any that would have developed in Jon since he was conceived in the dome. The post-Crisis crutch was always that Clark's powers would be the hurdle; without them, the impediment to a child was gone.

The Convergence approach has been out for a while - we were shown in Action Comics 978 that Diana was Lois' midwife.

[Kuwagaton]

This is a stretch, but part of me would wonder if the experience with Sam made Jon less ambivalent.

[Sacred Knight]

Kryptonian and human having problems with having kids is a concept that should've been tossed away from Superman mythos a long time ago. It's outdated. And Jor-El as Mr Oz had zero problems with Lois and Jon back in Oz Effect arc. In fact he liked both of them and never questioned the possibility of such alliance. So yeah, I'm on a side of those who says to Bendis to suck ass. That concept never made sense to me and it shouldn't be part of Superman in 2018.

Jon couldn't have powers inside of Lois because solar radiation did not touched him until he was born out in the open. So yeah, Lois caring a kryptonian child shouldn't be under question at all.

To be quite honest, I think that argument is constantly brought up only for a single purpose - to make Superman be with anyone else but Lois. And by anybody else I mean somebody physically "super" as him. Even though that logic is stupid, because if kryptonian and human can't have kids because of being two different races, than Superman shouldn't be able to have a family with anybody else but another kryptonian.

What does liking them have to do with anything? Nothing Jor-El says suggests he doesn't like Jon nor Lois. He's not even looking down on her. He's simply noting that it shouldn't have been possible to conceive and yet they did. That interests him. And as his grandchild he now wants to be a teacher to him about the cosmos. He had zero problem with them in The Oz Effect yes, but he also displays zero problem with them here, so I don't get what kind of contradiction you're trying to suggest his characterization here displays.

And the idea didn't come about for an excuse to put Superman with a meta. The idea was brought up specifically so Superman COULD be with Lois but back then they didn't want them having kids so they kept up with the Kryptonian/human incompatibility.

Its definitely surprising though that Jon is willing to go. I was all but certain the way this was going to go was that Jor-El would convince Kal and thus it would be Clark who convinced Jon. Instead its the other way around. Though I'm setting myself up for a disappointment in that I'm no longer confident Lois goes with. Its still possible she does and she comes back sooner than Jon somehow, but the odds are increasing substantially that it could just be Jon leaves and she and Clark are on the outs over it. Which I would find a less interesting scenario.