[SPOILER WARNING] Amazing Spider-Man #800 Thoughts

[SuperiorIronman]

It's a core tenant of storytelling going back to the first stories ever told, through the great tragedies, to the next stories you see tomorrow.
Quick spoiler: It's also the end of every biography ever told.
Death is part of the human condition and the final chapter in every story... (except for comic books, but we'll get to that in a sec...)


And now we get to the portion of this conversation that's about the suspension of belief.
What you're talking about here is that you've read enough comics in your lifetime to know that ANYBODY can come back.
When I was growing up reading Marvel, there was a steadfast rule that TWO characters could NEVER come back from the grave: Uncle Ben and Bucky.
There was so much fan-anger from fans who were around my age and older when the Winter Soldier story came out-- because Bucky's death was viewed as one of the great untouchables. You weren't suppose to bring Bucky back!
But they did.
And you know what?
That story was GREAT! And, hell, it lead to one of my favorite super hero movies of all time.
And in the end, that's what it comes down to:
Telling stories to entertain. Telling stories that have you invested. Telling stories that affect you.
If you're going to play the card of "Well, I've read enough comics to know that anyone can come back"... I have to shrug at that. I don't mean to be cruel, but that's part of the price of suspension of disbelief. Either you're willing to go along for the ride and see where the story goes, or you can let your knowledge of tropes and convention hamper you to the point where everything can be picked apart, analyzed, and picked at to the point where you're no longer enjoying the story ON a story-level.

AND THAT'S FAIR.
I'm not saying that's not fair.
I'm saying that if that's the point where you're at, the medium may have lost some of its luster for you.

Take this example:
You KNOW we're not going to kill the main character in a SOLO title of an ongoing series.
Sure, you can bump off a Ned Stark (and, boy, is that shocking)...
...but for the rarest-of-rare times, you know that we're not going to stick Superman, Spider-Man, or Batman into the grave. (And even if we do, you KNOW they're gonna be back).
So you read their adventures every month with the knowledge that you're going to get to read them the next month too.
But you still GASP when they get into danger-- and hope that they get out of their next "inescapable" trap.
Even though you know they're going to be there next month and the month after.

This is no different.

If you can accept a character's death in comics and keep reading (even though you KNOW you're in a comic book world where anyone can come back at any time), you'll probably have a more enjoyable time. If you can accept that suspension of belief and keep reading, comics are fun.
As you get older, sometimes your enjoyment moves to another level. Maybe you DON'T have the same suspension of belief. Maybe you've read so many comics and understand the underpinnings of comic book universes, that this stuff DOESN'T surprise you or affect you on those levels anymore. Sometimes people keep reading NOT to be wowed by the magic trick, but to try to outsmart it and figure out how the trick was done. That's also one way to read and enjoy comics.

For example: When we did SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN, we knew readers would expect Peter Parker to come back... but they wouldn't know HOW he'd come back. Enter Ghost Pete. Ghost Pete was there to tickle and tease people who were trying to machine Peter's return-- who were looking for clues and hints to how he'd pull off his big return. And there were a number of fans who wrote in that that was their favorite part of SUPERIOR.



IF that happens (and I'm not saying it will, but IF...) then the question is: Was that journey fun?
Did you enjoy seeing Pete come back in Superior and how it was handled? Did you enjoy the journey they took in the Superman titles? (I know that I loved the hell out of Kessel's SUPERBOY version of that. To ME that alone justified the whole DEATH OF SUPERMAN journey.)


The journey to get there. The journey after. The possible stories you can tell. In the end, it all comes down to the stories. And if they're not doing it for you, or you're not getting the FEELING you want from reading the books, it's totally cool as a reader to stop and find a different franchise or experience to put your time and energy into. I was really into DOWNTON ABBEY for a season and a half... then I wasn't. As a kid, I blasted through every single Michael Moorcock fantasy novel till there were none left to read. I made it all the way through THE WIRE, but dropped THE SHIELD part way in. It's all okay.


He wasn't.
But his death is where the story went.
Everything serves the story.


Those stories are still there. They're in your longbox whenever you want to read them. There was no plot or kabbalah to screw readers out of money or to tank previous issues, anymore than Gerry Conway did something underhanded to everyone who read a Gwen story before the Death of Gwen Stacy-- or the Avengers writers did something underhanded to all the readers of the previous WONDER MAN series after they killed Simon in OPERATION: GALACTIC STORM. If you're not in a solo book where you're the headliner, you have a potential target on your head. That's part of the buy in to the Marvel Universe. Back when I was writing THE THING, I had Bill Foster as a recurring character. Then my title got canceled-- and CIVIL WAR happened. I guarantee you, if THE THING was still an ongoing at that point, Bill Foster wouldn't have died during CW. But that's the way it played out. And it wasn't a "screw you" to everyone who'd been reading my THING or to anyone who had a run of BLACK GOLIATH comics in their longboxes. It was just where the story went.

I wasn't expecting a reply but that's the beauty of a message board isn't it.

I may not agree totally and I may not like it, but I do respect the Hell out of that decision to do it if it's here to serve your story (probably just coincidental timing regarding Flash). I would say that Norman could just as easily been a threat to Peter specifically, but if it's simply not in the cards to do so for whatever reason then I guess that's fine if somebody else could potentially take that "bullet" to build tension. I can't speak to the objectivity of doing that given the character in question, but if it serves the story then that's fine. As a writer I'm sure your committed to what you do and while I can't say I agree with the decision, I will accept that defense of it. Mileage will vary, and that somebody has a story they want to tell. But that's completely fair.

I look forward to Iron man and Fantastic Four.

[The Mary Janes]

It was pretty good. I liked it, but he prelude to this felt rushed. I wish J.J.J killed Osborn though. I don't like that he's alive.

[comicscollector]

I picked up Amazin Spider-Man#800 recently with the Alex Ross cover.
Will be re-reading this story more times,but after reading it recently i can say it´s a great centenary issue for sure.
I liked it a lot that it was just one story with that many pages in the 800th issue of Amazing Spider-Man.
The story from the start to the finish was quite good,and even with the story having diferent artist´s it was not less good because of that,because these are all artists that had illustrated stories before in Amazing Spider-Man and Nick Bradshaw i think was not too shaby illustrating part of the story.

[The Rhino]

Finally got my issue in the mail. A few thoughts.

1: The art was absolutely terrible. Made it hard for me to stay into the story.
2: Does EVERYONE know Peter Parker is Spider-Man now? Every character was in an ear-shot of either Silk calling Spider-Man Peter or the Goblin ranting about Peter. How does Aunt May NOT KNOW? She doesn't even seem to question anything either. That was very annoying for me.
3: Many random things happening that were lacked proper story justification. Venom/Otto showing up, really. The black suit doing nothing to even help Spider-Man and probably making him worse off (All the fire from the Goblin).
4: The ending didn't seem earned. Spider-Man just played to the ego of the Goblin and it worked out in a few panels. Seems too easy. Why didn't Spider-Man just do that a few issues ago since it was so easy.
5: I think this story sums up Slott's run more generally. Story lines with a lot of potential but not always executed in the best ways, especially the concluding issues.
6: Generally positive view of Slott but 100% looking forward to a new writer and artist.

[Ravin' Ray]

Are you saying the art overall is terrible, or each individual artist per chapter is terrible? While the issue as a whole was one continuous run that could have been served better by artists with similar styles (if that is the beef), "Goodbye" marked a clear break and Marcos Martin as the artist made sense, having done the funeral issue for Marla Jameson and the framing story in "Torch Song" for Johnny Storm almost back-to-back.

[farmernudie]

Finally got my issue in the mail. A few thoughts.

1: The art was absolutely terrible. Made it hard for me to stay into the story.
2: Does EVERYONE know Peter Parker is Spider-Man now? Every character was in an ear-shot of either Silk calling Spider-Man Peter or the Goblin ranting about Peter. How does Aunt May NOT KNOW? She doesn't even seem to question anything either. That was very annoying for me.
3: Many random things happening that were lacked proper story justification. Venom/Otto showing up, really. The black suit doing nothing to even help Spider-Man and probably making him worse off (All the fire from the Goblin).
4: The ending didn't seem earned. Spider-Man just played to the ego of the Goblin and it worked out in a few panels. Seems too easy. Why didn't Spider-Man just do that a few issues ago since it was so easy.
5: I think this story sums up Slott's run more generally. Story lines with a lot of potential but not always executed in the best ways, especially the concluding issues.
6: Generally positive view of Slott but 100% looking forward to a new writer and artist.

I wasn't overly excited with the issue either but am also very excited about the new writer and artist. Even the new colorist looks to be very vibrant.

For a centennial issue it was maybe near the middle of the pack. I definitely would put 200, 300 and 400 before it...but haven't put thought into it yet really how I'd rank them all in order of enjoyment.

I just think Slotts style will work better with FF. Looking forward to that. I enjoyed his Surfer better than Spidey also. I've been rereading Superior lately, and even that is now bugging me how Otto talks nothing like Pete yet MJ and others seem to be written as a bit too clueless even from the get go.

[The Rhino]

Are you saying the art overall is terrible, or each individual artist per chapter is terrible? While the issue as a whole was one continuous run that could have been served better by artists with similar styles (if that is the beef), "Goodbye" marked a clear break and Marcos Martin as the artist made sense, having done the funeral issue for Marla Jameson and the framing story in "Torch Song" for Johnny Storm almost back-to-back.

Oops. Double post. Sorry.

[The Rhino]

Are you saying the art overall is terrible, or each individual artist per chapter is terrible? While the issue as a whole was one continuous run that could have been served better by artists with similar styles (if that is the beef), "Goodbye" marked a clear break and Marcos Martin as the artist made sense, having done the funeral issue for Marla Jameson and the framing story in "Torch Song" for Johnny Storm almost back-to-back.

Martin's art is the lone exception but by the time I got to "Goodbye" I was already sort of out if it.

Also, while my review of this issue was slightly negative I want to say that I respect Slott a lot. He takes a lot of crap on here and he does not deserve that at all. None of this is personal to him. He tends to write good stories! and will be viewed as one of the best Spider-Man authors of all time. But it is time for a change. I also appreciate Slott coming here to discuss the story with us. Most authors do not do that. We are lucky! I look forward to reading his Ironman very much.

[David Walton]

Man, felt like it took my copy FOREVER to arrive in the mail. But totally worth the wait! I thought it was a really strong note to end Slott's final epic story on. It felt like an old-fashioned centennial issue, HUGE story with big emotional payoffs and honoring so many legacies.

Flash's death was emotional, to say the least. The funeral sequence was a tearjerker. It encapsulated the characters journey from ASM #1 to this point really well, and showed what Flash and Peter had come to mean to each other.

The conversation with Jonah was great as well. It was such a JJJ moment, but with the added dimension that he now feels like Spider-Man's protector. Funny and poignant.

Some great setups for future writers to work with, with Harry Osborn's family situation and Otto Octavius' new status quo.

Well done, Mr. Slott!

[esskay]

Really hated this issue. Like, for me, it was one of the worst comics I've ever read. If that sounds like hyperbole, it comes from Slott's absolute desperation to make it one of the best, or at least the most EPIC. It just read like incoherent bombast to me. I laughed loads, and not for the right reasons. Just total drivel.

I've LIKED some of Slott's run, including issues leading up to this. Superior Spider-Man (at least the first half of it) will always be great.

But I've been waiting a long time for him to leave the book. I would've stopped buying it - for the first time in 30 years - but I was waiting for someone new to take over. Hopefully, the book will improve, with more character-led stories and a more realistic tone. Less of these terrible EVENTS - though the word "Spidergeddon" doesn't bode well. I fear that Slott may have permanently altered the kinds of stories we get featuring Spider-Man. If that's the case, maybe I'll finally be able to give the character up for good.

[wleakr]

Just got my copy in the mail also (which BTW was great to get a $10 mag as part of the subscription!). I REALLY enjoyed this and it was so packed that I actually spent 2 days to read it! And I still haven't read the mail section or scrutinized the variant covers!

Didn't mind the different artists, but I was never a fan of Ramos, so I knew those pages wouldn't be my fav to look at, however all the artists were good enough to get the story visuals across.

I read through the negative comments about the use of the symbiote, but didn't see the problem with it overall. Felt natural to me, from Jonah coming up with the idea to get Brock to help, through Brock deciding the suit would make Spidey more of a match for Red. And it made sense that the suit couldn't help much being surrounded by flames from all the destruction all around them. The only real problem I had (which is probably due to my not following Venom in forever) is the ease in which Brock separated from the suit. I remember way back in the day that once the suit was fully bonded, that it took a lot to disconnect from the host and was a painful process. But maybe that's no longer the case and it didn't keep me from enjoying the book!

Lots of great moments throughout and I enjoyed all the evil cracks the Goblin made, including the "blondes in high places" remark.

Flash giving his all to save so many was awesome and totally in character for a military man. Also nice touch for him go out knowing who his hero's real identity is.

I'm interested if any of this will be continued, particularly with Normie and Otto...

Once again, I was thoroughly entertained by this issue!

[Tmacaoni]

I'm a big fan of the slottster, but I just felt this was just too rushed. There was just a couple of story beats I just didn't get. One of them being exactly what Spider-man was saying:

How does this book about Carnage end up with the least amount of casualties ever? I mean the build up with Norman was amazing!! He ripped a rat's head off and killed his associates!! He destroyed all kinds of property and outclassed Peter in ability in every way. Then he releases it just to beg for it back 1 minute later? Just kinda odd to me. Then again I'm just gonna count this up as the Goblin persona taking full control, because Norman Osborn has been better than this.



Also the Normie thing kinda fizzled for me. Goblin Childe is a great concept and all that buildup really paid off with Normie jealousy of Stanley. So when he gets the power to finally rid the one thing that makes him a happy kid again he totally ignores tracking down and killing Stanley? Not only would this plot point would've possibly brought Lilly Hollister back into the fold, but maybe Liz and Harry would've been able to show their love for both children better that way. Especially considering the carnage symbiote should've easily taken over Normie (who somehow keeps his symbiotic power anyway).

I dunno. I just thought it was too rushed and would've loved for Slott to end at 805 so Silk could've gotten more time to do something and Spider-man would've made a better suit to combat this Red Goblin better. Then seeing Otto would've made more sense and Flash's death would've been more meaningful. Also maybe Black Cat could've done something lol? I missed when she left New York while all this was happening.

[Venomous Mask]

It was pretty good. I liked it, but he prelude to this felt rushed. I wish J.J.J killed Osborn though. I don't like that he's alive.

I don't know, I kind of want to see more of the adventures of Norman Kasady. Carnage's biggest weakness has always been his stupidity, but if any of Norman's intelligence is still around, the new "Cletus" could be more dangerous than either villain by themselves.

[boots]

Just got my copy in the mail also (which BTW was great to get a $10 mag as part of the subscription!). I REALLY enjoyed this and it was so packed that I actually spent 2 days to read it! And I still haven't read the mail section or scrutinized the variant covers!

Didn't mind the different artists, but I was never a fan of Ramos, so I knew those pages wouldn't be my fav to look at, however all the artists were good enough to get the story visuals across.

I read through the negative comments about the use of the symbiote, but didn't see the problem with it overall. Felt natural to me, from Jonah coming up with the idea to get Brock to help, through Brock deciding the suit would make Spidey more of a match for Red. And it made sense that the suit couldn't help much being surrounded by flames from all the destruction all around them. The only real problem I had (which is probably due to my not following Venom in forever) is the ease in which Brock separated from the suit. I remember way back in the day that once the suit was fully bonded, that it took a lot to disconnect from the host and was a painful process. But maybe that's no longer the case and it didn't keep me from enjoying the book!

Lots of great moments throughout and I enjoyed all the evil cracks the Goblin made, including the "blondes in high places" remark.

Flash giving his all to save so many was awesome and totally in character for a military man. Also nice touch for him go out knowing who his hero's real identity is.

I'm interested if any of this will be continued, particularly with Normie and Otto...

Once again, I was thoroughly entertained by this issue!

that’s a nice subscription perk if you don’t have to pay extra...

[The Rhino]

that’s a nice subscription perk if you don’t have to pay extra...

I think it might count as two issues, not positive about this though.