Penguin the (Rumored) Villain of The Batman Movie?

[Confuzzled]

This isn't Guardians of the Galaxy. This is Batman, villains are a major selling point.

What's your point again? Why can't Penguin do what Guardians didn't, especially since he actually has good stories unlike them (besides Pain and Prejudice, there's also his story in Joker's Asylum).

For all we know the world ends next month. I'm responding to this development as I see fit based on the news I've been given. Why should I speculate about Catwoman or anyone else?

Who asked you to do that?

Also selective memory much? Batman Returns made considerably less than Batman anyway. If it did have stronger initial numbers(undoubtedly due to the bump from being a sequel to a successful film) then those mean jacksquat overall.

BR was deemed too "sexy" and "dark" leading to soccer moms boycotting it for their families. But it still out-opened the first film and that doesn't fit with your weird narrative that Penguin cannot be a draw.

[Armor of God]

What's your point again? Why can't Penguin do what Guardians didn't, especially since he actually has good stories unlike them (besides Pain and Prejudice, there's also his story in Joker's Asylum).



Who asked you to do that?



BR was deemed too "sexy" and "dark" leading to soccer moms boycotting it for their families. But it still out-opened the first film and that doesn't fit with your weird narrative that Penguin cannot be a draw.

Both of those just like his villains month issue are Penguin pov stories about how he was bullied, same idea across them all, he was bullied we get it and moreover they barely featured Batman because any encounter between them is a joke, they're not Batman stories because no one wants to waste their time writing Batman vs Penguin stories. Penguin expired as a useful Batman villain the moment DC introduced Ra's al Ghul, Since then he's existed for nostalgic reasons only.
My point is that he's uncool, already used, unthreatening, not particularly interesting and falls in to the mob boss category where there are other villains that can also be used instead of him.
You want your stereotypical mob boss, you got Black Mask, he's not a deep character but he's got a good visual and is threatening you want an elusive mastermind with resources you've got Ra's. What exactly is Penguin bringing to the table?

You did, you brought up Catwoman.

I dont care what it was deemed, I dont care about excuses, it made less than its predecessor so your narrative falls flat and using the opening numbers of a sequel to a well received hit as a testament to the sequel's success is ridiculous. Do you even know how box office works?

[Confuzzled]

Both of those just like his villains month issue are Penguin pov stories about how he was bullied, same idea across them all, he was bullied we get it and moreover they barely featured Batman because any encounter between them is a joke, they're not Batman stories because no one wants to waste their time writing Batman vs Penguin stories. Penguin expired as a useful Batman villain the moment DC introduced Ra's al Ghul, Since then he's existed for nostalgic reasons only.
My point is that he's uncool, already used, unthreatening, not particularly interesting and falls in to the mob boss category where there are other villains that can also be used instead of him.
You want your stereotypical mob boss, you got Black Mask, he's not a deep character but he's got a good visual and is threatening you want an elusive mastermind with resources you've got Ra's. What exactly is Penguin bringing to the table?

Well then thank goodness you're not writing the film as an actual competent writer can simply make those good stories about Penguin into good Penguin vs. Batman stories.

You did, you brought up Catwoman.

What?

I dont care what it was deemed, I dont care about excuses, it made less than its predecessor so your narrative falls flat and using the opening numbers of a sequel to a well received hit as a testament to the sequel's success is ridiculous. Do you even know how box office works?

You still have to come up with an actual reason to defend your claim that Penguin cannot be a draw.

[9th.]

Hope so Penguin needs some love, who cares if he isn't a main draw. Its their job to make him one

[Confuzzled]

Hope so Penguin needs some love, who cares if he isn't a main draw. Its their job to make him one

Exactly. And while not everyone is a fan of Gotham's take on the character, that version has a strong fanbase, showing it can be done. The "He's not a draw" claim is unsubstantiated.

[Frontier]

I think the Problem with both Strange and Penguin as villains in a big Blockbuster Movie is that they can't really go up in physical Fight against Batman.

Unless he's like The Batman Penguin, where he learned ninja moves from The Orient .

(Heck bring in the Kabuki Twins)...

And Guardians of the Galaxy didn't have one memorable story until their movie came out. Your point?

What's your point again? Why can't Penguin do what Guardians didn't, especially since he actually has good stories unlike them (besides Pain and Prejudice, there's also his story in Joker's Asylum).

The Guardians had the entire DnA run and their cosmic events going for them before the movie hit.

For all we know though, Catwoman may be in this movie too.

If she's not in whatever the Harley "Girl Gang" movie ends up being, then I would be surprised if she isn't in the solo movie.

[Spencermalley935]

The Penguin is always an excellent choice for a villain in a Batman movie, especially if he's portrayed correctly.

It's always funny to me when fans disregard him for boring one-note villains like Hush or Black Mask.

[Spencermalley935]

Thats not a Batman story, they're not making a solo Penguin film. Hugo Strange has believable stories as the big bad like Monster Men, Prey and Batman Annual 10. Penguin just doesn't have anything going for him beyond the Trump comparisons. He's not the most dangerous,not the most interesting, not the smartest, not powerful and frankly not even Gotham's top crime lord. He's just someone DC keeps around because he's iconic. He doesn't have any interesting dynamic with Batman either.

You could easily make a Batman story with elements of Pain and Prejudice but even disregarding that, There's plenty of great Penguin stories out there if you know where to look.

Penguin Triumphant
Detective Comics 610-611
Batman 548-549
Joker's Asylum: Penguin

These stories are just as good if not better than anything with Strange.

[Vakanai]

pain and préjudices is a great story. You should definitely read it.

It's on my wishlist if I can find it for a reasonable price.

Riddler, Poison Ivy, Clayface, Hush, etc. Out of all the villains to use, they pick the lamest one. Might as well put Kite Man, Condiment King and Calendar Man in it as well. Seriously i don't see how Penguin is suppose to be formidable. Penguin?

Calendar Man was actually interesting in Long Halloween (it was the only time, but shows it can be done) and Condiment King is supposed to be a joke villain, and works just fine as such. I haven't read anything with Kite Man, but like most characters, his quality depends on the level of storytelling applied to him.

First and foremost you can actually recommend stories to over the years to the non comic reader. Penguin has one good story that came out all the way back in 2012 in a 70 year history. I cant even remember any Batman writer treating him as a big bad.

And Hugo has two, arguably maybe three in a 70 year history? That little bit is really enough to make him a draw? And non-comic readers aren't going to sit the film out because I can't recommend a few stories (although a more knowledgeable poster has done it for me, so moot point). So why keep trying to make this a point?

Secondly Hugo is unique, we've seen Penguin before, we've seen crime lords. We've yet to see Batman go up against an enemy like Hugo. The originality factor is the biggest.

That argument could better be applied to Clayface or Solomon Grundy.

Prey is easily workable as a basic pitch for a film and Monster Men can certainly open new fronts for the Batman franchise. I honestly hope he ends up in BOP, Hugo, Deathstroke, Ivy, Riddler anyone would be preferable over the Penguin imo.

Prey works best as an early Batman story, and Monster Men would be more suited to an animated film than live action.

Is Hugo your favorite villain?

Batman villains have been a draw for a while now. A character like Penguin can never be a draw, he doesn't have a cool factor or an intimidating factor. Deathstroke atleast had that going for him. Even if the movie does well I dont see Penguin being talked about much.

Except that Penguin already *is* a draw easily equal to Riddler and Poison Ivy to the general movie going public. It isn't a matter of if he can be a draw, he is. He is iconic and recognizable to an audience who will never read any comic, much less Hugo Strange's best stories.

Just because you can't see the value in a character doesn't mean an audience can't.

Well, I'm not arguing what executives will do. I'm expressing my opinion as a fan.

Fans don't make movies.

Kingpin has several decades of fighting Matt Murdock in the comics making him a Daredevil villain. The same can't be said for Deathstroke and Batman.

Give it decades. That is the point, decades had to happen for Kingpin to be a decades long Daredevil villain. Before those decades happened there were fans upset they were giving a Spider-Man villain to Daredevil.

Again, because Batman already has a great reserve of villains, many of whom have never even been used in a film, and on top of that, taking every cool villain you have in your universe and corralling them all into ONE franchise makes it seem like all you have going for you IS that one franchise. DC already has an image problem with the general public that they're the company that has only Batman and the rest of their universe is mediocre/uninteresting. They don't need to be exacerbating that by corralling all of their cooler characters into the Batman franchise.

I disagree for three reasons. One, I prefer to see more fluidity amongst the rogue galleries of heroes, like Joker plaguing Superman or Parasite showing up in Gotham. Why can't villains threaten more than one hero? Two, the Titans are a team, team centric villains always seem underutilized. Lex Luther is a Superman villain, Superman is on the Justice League, hence Luthor can also work as a JL villain. Three, Deathstroke often targets Nightwing, who is a part of the Batman franchise and mythos. Anyone that close to the Bat stuff may as well on occasion be a part of it.

Yeah, Nightwing....when he was leading the Titans. He's fought him after that, but again, his ire is focused entirely on Dick traditionally. He has no beef with Bruce. If this were a Nightwing movie, I wouldn't bat an eye, but its not. He'd be more at home appearing in the live-action Titans series before the Batman movie (and he actually might).

And he will always, always be a part of Teen Titans' and Nightwing's franchise. Doesn't mean he or any other character must be exclusive.

Its not just this ONE appearance. They've been trying to make him a Bat rogue for a little while now.

Really making a case for the eventual Kingpin trade between heroes ala Spider-Man and Daredevil, and both heroes are fine today, like Batman and Titans will be.

[ysosrs]

I can see the appeal of seeing a new take on the Penguin, but at the same time, there are so many characters from the Rogue's Gallery we haven't really seen explored thoroughly on film yet. I was hoping for the Deathstroke rumor to be true...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Fans don't make movies.

Not saying they do. Just saying what I, myself as a fan, would like to see.

Give it decades. That is the point, decades had to happen for Kingpin to be a decades long Daredevil villain. Before those decades happened there were fans upset they were giving a Spider-Man villain to Daredevil.

I don't wanna give it decades. That's the point.

I disagree for three reasons. One, I prefer to see more fluidity amongst the rogue galleries of heroes, like Joker plaguing Superman or Parasite showing up in Gotham. Why can't villains threaten more than one hero?

Except its almost never the other way around. What you're saying would be valid if there was an equitable exchange of villains between the franchises. But that's not the case. DC's practice in recent years has been to herd everything into the Bat-franchise and/or view everything through a Bat-centric lens.

Two, the Titans are a team, team centric villains always seem underutilized.

Thanos, Ultron, and Doom all say hello.

Lex Luther is a Superman villain, Superman is on the Justice League, hence Luthor can also work as a JL villain.

Its not so much Luthor as it is the Legion of Doom/Injustice League that are JL villains.

Three, Deathstroke often targets Nightwing, who is a part of the Batman franchise and mythos. Anyone that close to the Bat stuff may as well on occasion be a part of it.

But again, his ire is ALWAYS directed at Dick. That's the character he wants to get at. Its historically never been directed at Bruce. The one time Deathstroke teamed up with Talia was when they were going after DICK as Batman. So unless Dick is going to be the Batman of the DCEU from here on out, then its odd to have Slade as the villain.

And he will always, always be a part of Teen Titans' and Nightwing's franchise. Doesn't mean he or any other character must be exclusive.

I'd still rather not cement him as PRIMARILY a Batman villain. They didn't have Loki first appear in an Iron Man movie even though he's been an enemy of the Avengers, now did they? Some characters should be established as "belonging" to one franchise. Deathstroke is one of those and should be established as belonging to the Titans...then he should fight Batman if need be.

Really making a case for the eventual Kingpin trade between heroes ala Spider-Man and Daredevil, and both heroes are fine today, like Batman and Titans will be.

Again, would rather this just NOT happen. Plus, there's the fact that its completely unnecessary. Daredevil barely had ANY good villains going for him. I mean, he literally had a rogue named "Stilt-Man." He needed Kingpin. Batman has literally dozens of incredible villains already. He doesn't need to be swiping from other franchises in the DCU.

[Vakanai]

I don't wanna give it decades. That's the point.

Said a fan who didn't want Kingpin to go to DD.

Except its almost never the other way around. What you're saying would be valid if there was an equitable exchange of villains between the franchises. But that's not the case. DC's practice in recent years has been to herd everything into the Bat-franchise and/or view everything through a Bat-centric lens.

Then instead of complaining about more villains showing up in Batman, why not complain about not getting more villains in Superman? There are different ways to make it more equitable.

Thanos, Ultron, and Doom all say hello.

Doom barely counts, F4 was conceived of as a team with a limited roster from the start, the team is basically the same as a solo hero in other books. Thanos is like Darkseid, a big cosmic threat. I grant you Ultron.
Also, all Marvel, and all uber powerful.

Its not so much Luthor as it is the Legion of Doom/Injustice League that are JL villains.

Solo villains of solo heroes who team up when their heroes do.

But again, his ire is ALWAYS directed at Dick. That's the character he wants to get at. Its historically never been directed at Bruce. The one time Deathstroke teamed up with Talia was when they were going after DICK as Batman. So unless Dick is going to be the Batman of the DCEU from here on out, then its odd to have Slade as the villain.

Hardly a jump to make more enemies other of your main enemy's family.

I'd still rather not cement him as PRIMARILY a Batman villain. They didn't have Loki first appear in an Iron Man movie even though he's been an enemy of the Avengers, now did they? Some characters should be established as "belonging" to one franchise. Deathstroke is one of those and should be established as belonging to the Titans...then he should fight Batman if need be.

And appearing first in Batman won't make him a primarily Batman foe. And they could have introduced Loki earlier if they wanted, they changed Ultron from a Pym creation into an Iron Man creation.

Again, would rather this just NOT happen. Plus, there's the fact that its completely unnecessary. Daredevil barely had ANY good villains going for him. I mean, he literally had a rogue named "Stilt-Man." He needed Kingpin. Batman has literally dozens of incredible villains already. He doesn't need to be swiping from other franchises in the DCU.

They could have made new Daredevil villains, but the Kingpin transition worked out, this will work out. If a Teen Titans writer wants to use Deathstroke they will, if a Batman writer wants to use him they will, whether it be a film or comic book, and as long as it is good it doesn't matter.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Said a fan who didn't want Kingpin to go to DD.

Again, DD would probably have no compelling enemies without Kingpin (aside from Bullseye). Bats already has an embarrassment of riches without Deathstroke.

Then instead of complaining about more villains showing up in Batman, why not complain about not getting more villains in Superman? There are different ways to make it more equitable.

What I'm complaining about is DC's approach, which has been to prop up the Bat-franchise even at the expense of others. Them herding DS into it is a symptom of that larger problem. If it was just one more instance of villain sharing in the DCU, then it wouldn't be a big deal. However, this is a larger problem of over-saturation of Batman or at least the idea that Batman is the only window through which to view the DCU to the point where DC is just seeing any cool character in their staple and throwing them Batman's way. The recent Batman Ninja movie even painted Grodd as a Batman villain.

And I'm saying this as someone who loves Batman. But its getting to the point where Batman is gravitating away from the street-level grittiness that has made him such a cool character for so many decades.

Doom barely counts, F4 was conceived of as a team with a limited roster from the start, the team is basically the same as a solo hero in other books. Thanos is like Darkseid, a big cosmic threat. I grant you Ultron.
Also, all Marvel, and all uber powerful.

Doom definitely counts. The FF is a team that, yes, has a limited roster but is still a team. Plus, their roster has changed over the years. Either way, though, Doom has rivalries with every core member of the FF. So he's a team villain and is probably the most utilized villain in the history of the Marvel U. Magneto is also a team villain and is one of the most famous villains of all time. There's also Galactus, another FF villain. Them being Marvel characters doesn't matter. Also, Sinestro would likely count because he's an enemy of the entire GLC and he's been at the center of a lot of important storylines. Darkseid was conceived as a villain for the New Gods and then later the JLA. Despero, Maxwell Lord, even Deathstroke himself, etc. have all had major roles in big DC storylines.

The list goes on and on. But this is really a discussion that has nothing to do with the main point.

Solo villains of solo heroes who team up when their heroes do.

Yeah, exactly. They form their own TEAM and that's what makes them a threat to the JLA most of the time.

Hardly a jump to make more enemies other of your main enemy's family.

Not saying its a jump, but they're now trying to cut out Dick entirely and make DS mainly Bruce's adversary.

And appearing first in Batman won't make him a primarily Batman foe. And they could have introduced Loki earlier if they wanted, they changed Ultron from a Pym creation into an Iron Man creation.

It would cement him as being FIRST and FOREMOST a Bat-villain in the DCEU, yes. Remember, the general audience won't know that he originated as a Titans villain. I would just rather that not happen. And while they did muck about with Ultron's origin, he was still first and foremost an Avengers villain and appeared in an Avengers movie. They introduced Loki in a Thor movie...which was appropriate given that he's Thor's brother and everything.

They could have made new Daredevil villains, but the Kingpin transition worked out, this will work out. If a Teen Titans writer wants to use Deathstroke they will, if a Batman writer wants to use him they will, whether it be a film or comic book, and as long as it is good it doesn't matter.

They did make new DD villains. They made Bullseye and that worked out. But DD's rogues gallery in general was made up of pretty much the most ridiculous, gimmicky, and one-dimensional villains. So, making Kingpin into not just a recurring villain but one of his main adversaries was kind of necessary.

And it does matter which franchise is able to lay claim to the villains first. I mean, would it have felt right to you to have had Joker or Two Face or even Ra's al Ghul debut in the DCEU as the archenemy of Barry Allen and be in a Flash movie and never even cross paths with Batman? Deathstroke is a Titans villain and they should cement him as such in a Titans movie first. He can then go on and fight whoever in any other movie after that...

[Clark_Kent]

Reeves has been on this project for...what...a year & a half now? And we're still in the rumor stage?

Turn in a script first (or even an outline, since it appears he hasn't even done that yet) and then let's talk about things. Until then, it's all just air. I understand he's taking his time, but c'mon. We're looking at 2020 at the earliest, and that release gets moved further away the longer he takes. It's Batman, he's not particularly hard to write. A guy of Reeves' talent shoulda been able to bang it out in 6-8 months.

[Confuzzled]

Reeves has been on this project for...what...a year & a half now? And we're still in the rumor stage?

Turn in a script first (or even an outline, since it appears he hasn't even done that yet) and then let's talk about things. Until then, it's all just air. I understand he's taking his time, but c'mon. We're looking at 2020 at the earliest, and that release gets moved further away the longer he takes. It's Batman, he's not particularly hard to write. A guy of Reeves' talent shoulda been able to bang it out in 6-8 months.

A year and 3 months. Also, he did say he wasn't working on it until after July when War of the Planet of the Apes came out, so basically just 10 months. I also think he and WB execs were waiting to see how audiences would receive Justice League in order to decide which direction to take the Batman franchise in.

Anyway, in the meantime he has been doing some deep research and cites Neal Adams's work and Darwyn Cooke's Ego among his favorite Bat stories, so he seems alright.