Penguin the (Rumored) Villain of The Batman Movie?

[Mutant God]

Thats not a Batman story, they're not making a solo Penguin film. Hugo Strange has believable stories as the big bad like Monster Men, Prey and Batman Annual 10. Penguin just doesn't have anything going for him beyond the Trump comparisons. He's not the most dangerous,not the most interesting, not the smartest, not powerful and frankly not even Gotham's top crime lord. He's just someone DC keeps around because he's iconic. He doesn't have any interesting dynamic with Batman either.

As the foil to Batman as a crime lord, hes also a foil to Bruce Wayne as a rich guy who uses their money and connections to influence Gotham City also in some versions their is a Cobblepot Manor, as a counterpart to Wayne Manor, which is torn, abandoned, and dirty compared to clean Wayne Manor.

[Nero]

I'm not feeling it. Usually, I find the Penguin to be boring. The thing with Batman is, they can afford to go outside the iconic comfort zone and roll the dice on other Batman villains that have yet to receive the spotlight. I think they would stand a better chance at attracting the audience by having a main Batman villain they're not accustomed to seeing on the grand stage. If they want to go with a kingpin type villain for Batman to face off with then they should have gone with the Black Mask. Sionis not only rivals Cobblepot in intellect but he's more menacing and he looks way cooler especially on a cinematic level than an overweight guy who waddles like a penguin.

[Vakanai]

Again, DD would probably have no compelling enemies without Kingpin (aside from Bullseye). Bats already has an embarrassment of riches without Deathstroke.

They could have made a new, quality villain. They didn't and it worked.

And? So what if Batman has a wealth of villains? All I care about is getting a good Batman story, if someone has a good Batman vs Deathstroke story to tell, why should I care if it makes him a Batman rogue? Why should a film audience care?

What I'm complaining about is DC's approach, which has been to prop up the Bat-franchise even at the expense of others. Them herding DS into it is a symptom of that larger problem. If it was just one more instance of villain sharing in the DCU, then it wouldn't be a big deal. However, this is a larger problem of over-saturation of Batman or at least the idea that Batman is the only window through which to view the DCU to the point where DC is just seeing any cool character in their staple and throwing them Batman's way. The recent Batman Ninja movie even painted Grodd as a Batman villain.

And I'm saying this as someone who loves Batman. But its getting to the point where Batman is gravitating away from the street-level grittiness that has made him such a cool character for so many decades.

In comics, sure, they need to push other characters more than they do. In other media, they may need Batman to prop up other characters until they get people in there who can do them justice.

As for Batman Ninja, his rogues gallery doesn't have a villain who can pull off a time machine, the story needed Grodd.

Yeah, exactly. They form their own TEAM and that's what makes them a threat to the JLA most of the time.

Not sure what point you are trying to make...?

Not saying its a jump, but they're now trying to cut out Dick entirely and make DS mainly Bruce's adversary.

And you think that will last? Eventually a writer who loved the old TT stuff will bring the Slade Dick thing back forefront.

It would cement him as being FIRST and FOREMOST a Bat-villain in the DCEU, yes. Remember, the general audience won't know that he originated as a Titans villain. I would just rather that not happen. And while they did muck about with Ultron's origin, he was still first and foremost an Avengers villain and appeared in an Avengers movie. They introduced Loki in a Thor movie...which was appropriate given that he's Thor's brother and everything.

And? Why should we care what the GA thinks or knows? It won't affect the comics.

They did make new DD villains. They made Bullseye and that worked out. But DD's rogues gallery in general was made up of pretty much the most ridiculous, gimmicky, and one-dimensional villains. So, making Kingpin into not just a recurring villain but one of his main adversaries was kind of necessary.

Daredevil did not need Kingpin, he just needed a good villain, and they chose giving him another hero's villain, and because of good storytelling it worked. That is all that matters, storytelling. If the storytellers got a good DS and Batman story, then it works.

And it does matter which franchise is able to lay claim to the villains first. I mean, would it have felt right to you to have had Joker or Two Face or even Ra's al Ghul debut in the DCEU as the archenemy of Barry Allen and be in a Flash movie and never even cross paths with Batman? Deathstroke is a Titans villain and they should cement him as such in a Titans movie first. He can then go on and fight whoever in any other movie after that...

Actually, I would not have minded, and now that you put the idea in my head I would love a good Two Face Flash story. Who lays claim to a villain honestly doesn't bother me, and won't bother the audience. As long as it doesn't prevent him from being in a Titans movie it could be fun, might even drum up interest in a Titans movie.

All I want are good movies and good comic book stories, who is used doesn't matter to me, or the audience.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They could have made a new, quality villain. They didn't and it worked.

And? So what if Batman has a wealth of villains? All I care about is getting a good Batman story, if someone has a good Batman vs Deathstroke story to tell, why should I care if it makes him a Batman rogue? Why should a film audience care?

Because I'd rather not every cool character that DC has get sucked into the Batman franchise. Its not like they even have a good Batman vs. Deathstroke story to tell in a film. The idea came from the top down. The thought process of making him a Bat-rogue on DC's part has basically been that he's "too cool" for the Titans and that Batman makes everything better.

In other media, they may need Batman to prop up other characters until they get people in there who can do them justice.

That's the kind of thinking that has led to DC being seen as the "Batman and..." company and nothing more. Batman doesn't need to prop up other characters. Those characters can stand on their own without relying on more popular ones to carry them. Marvel trusted their less popular characters to stand on their own in building the MCU. Look how that worked out.

As for Batman Ninja, his rogues gallery doesn't have a villain who can pull off a time machine, the story needed Grodd.

How so? Because they needed a super genius? Uh, Riddler, Ra's al Ghul, Hugo Strange, Mad Hatter, etc. all have genius-level intellect. They could have all pulled off a time machine.

Not sure what point you are trying to make...?

That its not so much the individual villains themselves, but the team that their combined forces create that make them a threat to the League.

And you think that will last? Eventually a writer who loved the old TT stuff will bring the Slade Dick thing back forefront.

We don't know that. They could decide thatches is the track they want to take for the foreseeable future.

And? Why should we care what the GA thinks or knows? It won't affect the comics.

Uh, obviously, it does. You see how much DC and Marvel try to harmonize the comics with the movies? A lot.

Daredevil did not need Kingpin, he just needed a good villain, and they chose giving him another hero's villain, and because of good storytelling it worked. That is all that matters, storytelling. If the storytellers got a good DS and Batman story, then it works.

Yes, he needed a good established villain and Kingpin was already one so they didn't need to take the time to establish an original one. Also, I didn't say it couldn't "work" from a simple storytelling perspective. What I've said multiple times is that I would prefer it if they just cemented that Slade is first and foremost a Titans villain and then he can fight Batman in whatever crossover capacity they want to do.

Actually, I would not have minded, and now that you put the idea in my head I would love a good Two Face Flash story. Who lays claim to a villain honestly doesn't bother me, and won't bother the audience. As long as it doesn't prevent him from being in a Titans movie it could be fun, might even drum up interest in a Titans movie.

All I want are good movies and good comic book stories, who is used doesn't matter to me, or the audience.

The difference there being that they would never do that. They'd never make Two-Face or Joker into Flash villains primarily because well they have a respect for the Bat-franchise that they don't have for others. So, its okay for Batman to swipe from other franchises because he "elevates" those characters, even though that's not reciprocated. Batman is like a black hole that way. They think that Batman and Superman are the big leagues and everything else is JV, even though that mentality is holding them back. If they, you know, actually trusted that those franchises and those characters could stand on their own, they could have the success that Marvel has had.

Look at Wonder Woman. She had a hit movie and was the most talked about comic character of 2017. What has DC done in the comics or even otherwise to capitalize on that success? Uh, nothing really. I mean, was Wonder Woman the center of an entire event the way that Batman just was? Did she get another animated movie? No. None of that.

[Armor of God]

As the foil to Batman as a crime lord, hes also a foil to Bruce Wayne as a rich guy who uses their money and connections to influence Gotham City also in some versions their is a Cobblepot Manor, as a counterpart to Wayne Manor, which is torn, abandoned, and dirty compared to clean Wayne Manor.

Black Mask is all those things and he's visually far superior.

[Confuzzled]

Black Mask is all those things and he's visually far superior.

Penguin is way more iconic. And wasn't there a recent AU comic where he is depicted as a Trump analogy? That works perfectly too.

[Armor of God]

Well then thank goodness you're not writing the film as an actual competent writer can simply make those good stories about Penguin into good Penguin vs. Batman stories.



What?



You still have to come up with an actual reason to defend your claim that Penguin cannot be a draw.

There are no good Batman vs Penguin stories since BTAS period. Good luck to the writers but if Telltale and Gotham are any indication then its clear that DC is ashamed of Penguin and want people to see him as a skinny and attractive guy which is the exact inverse of what the character is. Penguin is not a villain with a cool factor and thats exactly the point of this character. If you want a cool Penguin then use Black Mask.

You brought Catwoman in to this discussion.

I've given plenty of reasons and besides I dont like the idea of him being a main villain. When was the last time he was the main villain of anything? Comics or otherwise. Its a risk, it limits the writers options considerably and there is no guarantee that he's capable of carrying a film.

[Armor of God]

Penguin is way more iconic. And wasn't there a recent AU comic where he is depicted as a Trump analogy? That works perfectly too.

And? Put Mask in a movie and he'll be "iconic" himself

Whats with your Trump obsession? I'm not American, I dont care about him and if I were American I'd not want to see more of him than I already do anyway. If Penguin is only good as a villain so that Trump haters can watch him getting his beaten and get a kick out of it then its a very sorry excuse of a reason to use him.
What's next? Use Ra's an an OBL analogue? Maybe they can use Bane as a Pablo Escobar expy while we're at it.

[Agent Z]

Black Mask is all those things and he's visually far superior.

And how many people consider Blackmask an interesting character? Besides those who like War Games and hate Steph Brown.

Penguin's got way more going for him in terms of character and stories than Blackmask could ever hope for.

[Agent Z]

There are no good Batman vs Penguin stories since BTAS period. Good luck to the writers but if Telltale and Gotham are any indication then its clear that DC is ashamed of Penguin and want people to see him as a skinny and attractive guy which is the exact inverse of what the character is. Penguin is not a villain with a cool factor and thats exactly the point of this character. If you want a cool Penguin then use Black Mask.

You brought Catwoman in to this discussion.

I've given plenty of reasons and besides I dont like the idea of him being a main villain. When was the last time he was the main villain of anything? Comics or otherwise. Its a risk, it limits the writers options considerably and there is no guarantee that he's capable of carrying a film.

Pain and Prejudice was written in 2011.

DC does not make Gotham or the Telltale games both of which have taken numerous liberties with the Batman mythos. Penguin being a skinny guy in those two continuities is just one of them.

Penguin was able to carry a film in the 1980s. Blackmask is only good for being a decoy antagonist who gets usurped by the Joker as seen in Under the Red Hood and Arkham Origins.

[Agent Z]

There are no good Batman vs Penguin stories since BTAS period. Good luck to the writers but if Telltale and Gotham are any indication then its clear that DC is ashamed of Penguin and want people to see him as a skinny and attractive guy which is the exact inverse of what the character is. Penguin is not a villain with a cool factor and thats exactly the point of this character. If you want a cool Penguin then use Black Mask.

You brought Catwoman in to this discussion.

I've given plenty of reasons and besides I dont like the idea of him being a main villain. When was the last time he was the main villain of anything? Comics or otherwise. Its a risk, it limits the writers options considerably and there is no guarantee that he's capable of carrying a film.

Pain and Prejudice was written in 2011.

DC does not make Gotham or the Telltale games both of which have taken numerous liberties with the Batman mythos. Penguin being a skinny guy in those two continuities is just one of them.

Penguin was able to carry a film in the 1980s. Blackmask is only good for being a decoy antagonist who gets usurped by the Joker as seen in Under the Red Hood and Arkham Origins.

[Godlike13]

Black Mask is not even visually superior, visually he’s rather common.

[Armor of God]

And how many people consider Blackmask an interesting character? Besides those who like War Games and hate Steph Brown.

Penguin's got way more going for him in terms of character and stories than Blackmask could ever hope for.

How many people consider Penguin a good character aside from those who use ONE story in a 70 year existence as proof of his greatness.

According to you. Mask is btw not even my first choice, they dropped a vastly superior candidate in Deathstroke for this? Ok he's not really a Bat villain so I wasn't too bothered but they've got Riddler, Freeze and Ivy. Among unused villains they have Black Mask, Hugo Strange, Court of Owls, Red Hood,Clayface and a lot more. They had this entire pool and yet they went with a fat guy who goes "waugh" while chomping on fish.

[Confuzzled]

ccording to you. Mask is btw not even my first choice, they dropped a vastly superior candidate in Deathstroke for this?

The character played by a mediocre actor in the DCEU and whom most people think is a Deadpool rip-off (by DC's own admission in the Teen Titans Go! movie trailer?).

But your Pengy hate has become amusing now so carry on and stay pressed.

[Armor of God]

Pain and Prejudice was written in 2011.

DC does not make Gotham or the Telltale games both of which have taken numerous liberties with the Batman mythos. Penguin being a skinny guy in those two continuities is just one of them.

Penguin was able to carry a film in the 1980s. Blackmask is only good for being a decoy antagonist who gets usurped by the Joker as seen in Under the Red Hood and Arkham Origins.

A character who has existed for 7 decades finally gets a readable story in 2012 or 2011, hurray and its not even a Batman story. Its like me recommending Vegeance of Bane or Birth of the Demon for the next Batman flick.

And in his case both his latest outings targeted the character in a manner as to completely change who he is. If Penguin is attractive and desirable and idealized then he's not Penguin.

Max Shreck and Catwoman carried that film, Penguin was the weakest element.