Who is Emma Frost's greatest victim?

[Hellinoze]

That's what this forum does to Wanda nonstop.

Oh... That's why I can't, literally can't, hate a character.

[Fantasy Free Me]

I voted Shaw.

Maybe he wasn't her greatest victim but I just LOVED those issues (Emma erasing all her memories). The little Kitty/Emma/Phantomex team up was super cute and I loved the last panels when Kitty tried to stop her (even if she was kind of a ghost at the time) because she thought Emma was going to kill him.

IDK, I really enjoyed those Uncanny issues a lot (even though it was Land doing the art) and her "final" words to him were pretty cool.

[Grey]

Butter rum for the funny award.

But In seriousness it’s jean. Contributing to making someone go crazy and murder a planet is pretty incomparable (yea yea I know retcons. I’m talking original).

[The Thunderbird]

Butter Rum appeared in only one issue in 1986. He was a very obscure character until I brought it up in these forums.

If he ever makes another appearance we'll know the writer read the forums!

It was truly awful what Emma did to the horse though ... I mean, I guess she was somewhat nice about it since she technically put it to sleep and didn't let it linger in pain. Kinda like when Paris Seville was dying, so Emma suppressed her pain.

How long ago was that? I remember Butter Rum being brought up in the old CBR forums.

[ButterRum]

Butter rum for the funny award.

But In seriousness it’s jean. Contributing to making someone go crazy and murder a planet is pretty incomparable (yea yea I know retcons. I’m talking original).

In fairness blaming Emma for Jean going Dark Phoenix is a bit much. Emma gave Mastermind a gun that allowed him to project illusions from far away. He could have done it from a closer distance if he wanted. Mastermind's powers at the time could make illusions but he couldn't control what people saw. What Jean saw was her own fantasy of illusion. .

It's one of the biggest misreads of the DPS -- that Mastermind literally possessed and controlled Jean. When she was done with the fantasy, she said to him that she was never under his control, and he only helped break her repression.

Professor X and Cyclops were always freaking out over Jean losing control of her powers. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you could argue if they had trusted Jean with her powers, she wouldn't have exploded and become the Dark Phoenix.

Why of all people did the Phoenix choose Jean? It heard her cry out for release.

The Dark Phoenix Saga was a story about control and power and the anxieties men had about women with too much power. The Hellfire Club represented hedonism and sexual maturity, while the X-Men represented repressed souls afraid of Jean's growing powers.

Her sacrifice at the end was a big "fuck you" to Professor X and Cyclops.

Unfortunately, the intention of the story has been misinterpreted, thanks to X3, Avengers vs X-Men, and the recent Phoenix Resurrection. But I think Morrison's and Whedon's X-Men did a good job interpreting the Dark Phoenix Saga and realized it was a story about power and control.

[Wiccan]

In fairness blaming Emma for Jean going Dark Phoenix is a bit much. Emma gave Mastermind a gun that allowed him to project illusions from far away. He could have done it from a closer distance if he wanted. Mastermind's powers at the time could make illusions but he couldn't control what people saw. What Jean saw was her own fantasy of illusion. .

It's one of the biggest misreads of the DPS -- that Mastermind literally possessed and controlled Jean. When she was done with the fantasy, she said to him that she was never under his control, and he only helped break her repression.

Professor X and Cyclops were always freaking out over Jean losing control of her powers. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you could argue if they had trusted Jean with her powers, she wouldn't have exploded and become the Dark Phoenix.

Why of all people did the Phoenix choose Jean? It heard her cry out for release.

The Dark Phoenix Saga was a story about control and power and the anxieties men had about women with too much power. The Hellfire Club represented hedonism and sexual maturity, while the X-Men represented repressed souls afraid of Jean's growing powers.

Her sacrifice at the end was a big "fuck you" to Professor X and Cyclops.

Unfortunately, the intention of the story has been misinterpreted, thanks to X3, Avengers vs X-Men, and the recent Phoenix Resurrection. But I think Morrison's and Whedon's X-Men did a good job interpreting the Dark Phoenix Saga and realized it was a story about power and control.

I think you're reaching. If anything is a bit like the opposite. Claremont associated evil and destruction with the sexual nature of the Hellfire Club...

[frostedemma]

I don't see why he is her biggest victim. unless there is a retcon that she controlled his mind.


Sure it was Jean grey, I really don't understand why Emma hates Jean so much

I guess you can make a point that emma kinda used scott vulnerable state of mind to start their affaire but tbh that falls more on bad writing and comic writers generally not taking mental illness/abuse seriously unless its to drive a plot.

[ButterRum]

I think you're reaching. If anything is a bit like the opposite. Claremont associated evil and destruction with the sexual nature of the Hellfire Club...

The Hellfire Club is not a perfect metaphor for healthy sexual liberation since after all they were villains who wanted to use Jean for more power, but they were a group less repressed than the X-Men and weren't ashamed of their desires and what they wanted. FWIW, they ran around in corsets and panties. Like Emma herself, they embraced sex and power and weren't afraid of it. Though through less than ethical means, they wanted Jean to embrace her power and sexuality too.

On the other hand, the X-Men were the uppity-do-good heroes who were constantly worried about Jean's powers getting out of hand. Specifically Professor X and Cyclops.

Jean experienced true independence, real power, and sexual liberation as the Phoenix, and everybody, including the Hellfire Club, wanted to put her back in a box, so she killed herself. It's a dark and pessimistic outlook and not perfect by any means, but it's commentary on what can happen in a repressed society and how things can go to hell.

When the Phoenix Force ate the souls of billions of lives, it was no more evil than a black hole swallowing a planet. The Phoenix Force was supposed to be a force of nature, and Jean was just helping it replenish its energy.

I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. I have a friend who taught the Dark Phoenix Saga for an English course, and this was his interpretation, too, as well as the students (non-comic readers) who read it and saw the metaphors.

What really sucks is all the retcons and how the Dark Phoenix Saga has been lost in translation!

[frostedemma]

All jokes aside Firestar is definitely the biggest victim of Emma. Angelica was an underage students that Emma manipulated and abused in order to groom her as the perfect assassin in a revenge plot. Emma even apologised to Angelica so that should tell you the length of Emma guilt over it and how she recognised it was one of the worst thing she's done.



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Generation X #59

[frostedemma]

I think blaming emma for mastermind manipulation of jean goes a bit too far. she does have a small responsibility to claim (providing mastermind with the psychic gun) but that's where it stops. she didn't know the extend mastermind would go with jean and she sure didn't tell him to do all of that

[Avelys]

The Hellfire Club is not a perfect metaphor for healthy sexual liberation since after all they were villains who wanted to use Jean for more power, but they were a group less repressed than the X-Men and weren't ashamed of their desires and what they wanted. FWIW, they ran around in corsets and panties. Like Emma herself, they embraced sex and power and weren't afraid of it. Though through less than ethical means, they wanted Jean to embrace her power and sexuality too.

On the other hand, the X-Men were the uppity-do-good heroes who were constantly worried about Jean's powers getting out of hand. Specifically Professor X and Cyclops.

Jean experienced true independence, real power, and sexual liberation as the Phoenix, and everybody, including the Hellfire Club, wanted to put her back in a box, so she killed herself. It's a dark and pessimistic outlook and not perfect by any means, but it's commentary on what can happen in a repressed society and how things can go to hell.

Wow, I've never read it like this, but this is such an elegant and intriguing interpretation.

[Hellinoze]

In fairness blaming Emma for Jean going Dark Phoenix is a bit much. Emma gave Mastermind a gun that allowed him to project illusions from far away. He could have done it from a closer distance if he wanted. Mastermind's powers at the time could make illusions but he couldn't control what people saw. What Jean saw was her own fantasy of illusion. .

It's one of the biggest misreads of the DPS -- that Mastermind literally possessed and controlled Jean. When she was done with the fantasy, she said to him that she was never under his control, and he only helped break her repression.

Professor X and Cyclops were always freaking out over Jean losing control of her powers. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and you could argue if they had trusted Jean with her powers, she wouldn't have exploded and become the Dark Phoenix.

Why of all people did the Phoenix choose Jean? It heard her cry out for release.

The Dark Phoenix Saga was a story about control and power and the anxieties men had about women with too much power. The Hellfire Club represented hedonism and sexual maturity, while the X-Men represented repressed souls afraid of Jean's growing powers.

Her sacrifice at the end was a big "fuck you" to Professor X and Cyclops.

Unfortunately, the intention of the story has been misinterpreted, thanks to X3, Avengers vs X-Men, and the recent Phoenix Resurrection. But I think Morrison's and Whedon's X-Men did a good job interpreting the Dark Phoenix Saga and realized it was a story about power and control.

Interesting. During Morrison's run, Jean was kind of frustrated by her almost non-relation with Scott. Till she went full phoenix on the U-men. Then, she said lost all her negative feelings (frustration ?) about Scott.

[nightw1ng]

u forgot the torture and body rape of storm.

I was also going to mention this. Besides Emma telepathically torturing Storm when she was first introduced, she also switched bodies with her at one point. Wasn't it implied Emma sexually violated Storm's body by having sex with Sebastian Shaw during the switch?

[ExodusCloak]

Mojo. Emma destroyed Mojo and he was off panel for ages. Or Crystal van helden. Or Bianca like niege or Astrid bloom. Or Selene.

The others on that list don't even rank.

[theoneandonly]

Thor in avsx