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  1. #121
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    If this is King putting effort into these stories then he really has no business writing comics. It’s not artistic, it’s a lack of knowing the character and environment as well as understanding how they interact with those around them. His dialogue is weak and even many of those who enjoy his work admit that. Which baffles me because he’s a writer, so if his dialogue sucks then that’s a good portion of his work and I don’t understand how people can still say he’s so good. He doesn’t bother to learn about characters, he just does his own thing. Booster Gold and Wonder Woman are perfect examples of this outside of Batman himself. His stories full of more holes than Swiss cheese. He’s made the title character completely incompetent and dependent on Catwoman for everything. Honestly, it seems like King hates Batman and is using him to build Catwoman up. King is the actual villain of his entire run.

  2. #122
    Incredible Member Armor of God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think declaring the amount of effort King is putting into his writing is...really speaking without knowledge. You can say it seems like King isn't putting effort into it, but if you listen to him talking, I think it's clear he's very engaged. Additionally, the kind of spareness King creates, to me doesn't indicate laziness, but instead very careful craft to create effect. Many people here clearly hate that effect. I think it's artistic and am so far enjoying it, though to me so much is tied up in King's endings that it's very hard for me to fully buy into his stories until they're complete and I can read backwards (this was true of Omega Men and Vision to such a degree that I am also waiting on Mister Miracle until it's done).
    I judge him by his work not what he says. I dont know the man, I only know his work. His Batman has displayed barely any emotion or character, he relishes in telling instead of showing, Seeley is doing the heavy lifting for the marriage storyline. Even the wedding trade only includes 24, 44 and 50 which says a lot about King's build up.
    So if King is putting effort then thats worse.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon1load View Post
    If this is King putting effort into these stories then he really has no business writing comics. It’s not artistic, it’s a lack of knowing the character and environment as well as understanding how they interact with those around them. His dialogue is weak and even many of those who enjoy his work admit that. Which baffles me because he’s a writer, so if his dialogue sucks then that’s a good portion of his work and I don’t understand how people can still say he’s so good. He doesn’t bother to learn about characters, he just does his own thing. Booster Gold and Wonder Woman are perfect examples of this outside of Batman himself. His stories full of more holes than Swiss cheese. He’s made the title character completely incompetent and dependent on Catwoman for everything. Honestly, it seems like King hates Batman and is using him to build Catwoman up. King is the actual villain of his entire run.
    I don't admit that his dialogue is weak at all. I think it's deliberately artificial, working towards a poetic effect. Strip Panel Naked has devoted several video essays towards explaining the techniques at play in King's stuff, and I think they are pretty representative of how he functions in all of his work. My biggest problems with King on Batman have always been the sense that shipping twice monthly doesn't allow him to control the details of his story as closely as he must to make sure everything lands as powerfully as he does in his 12 issue miniseries. That does lead to some plot holes, but I think you exaggerate how many there are.

    I also don't see how King's made Batman any more or less incompetent than most writers. How is kneeling down to pray with Joker (my assumption being that Batman hopes to find a spot in Joker's unpredictability to capture him) any worse than Batman sitting down in Joker's electric chair in Death of the Family? I find the latter much more offensive.

    And again with the meme that the current writers of Batman (King, Tynion, etc) "hate Batman" and want us to hate him too. Loving a different interpretation of Batman is not the same as hating Batman. I, personally, loathe Greg Rucka, Grant Morrison, and Scott Snyder's versions of Batman. I believe they are all very nice writers who love their interpretation of Batman.

    Seriously - the personal attacks in your argument really make for a very dispiriting discussion. King "hates Batman" - you don't know his heart. King isn't putting any effort into his stories - you don't know how hard he works. These are unknowable unless you're a close friend or supervisor. You can make solid arguments about your frustration with Batman's seeming ineffectuality or your dislike of the dialogue without making these personal claims.
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  4. #124
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    If you have to have someone write essays to try to make sense of your work in a mainstream comic then you are failing. If you don’t see how he has made Batman incompetent then I just don’t know what to tell you. Go back and read the run. Then go back a read almost ANY other writers Batman and maybe you’ll understand. As for the rest, I can make those claims because that is what his work shows. It shows a dislike for the character and an inability to do his job effectively.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    I judge him by his work not what he says. I dont know the man, I only know his work. His Batman has displayed barely any emotion or character, he relishes in telling instead of showing, Seeley is doing the heavy lifting for the marriage storyline. Even the wedding trade only includes 24, 44 and 50 which says a lot about King's build up.
    So if King is putting effort then thats worse.
    Okay, I'll try to go point by point.

    1) Is Batman ever a very emotionally expressive character? I don't think King's is significantly less emotive than other writers. And the way he's written his love for Selina is pretty effective for me. (It's also frustrating to me that people are making the same argument about King that they made about Tynion - that both writers hate Batman - when the claims being made are the opposite - King's Batman doesn't have emotion, but Tynion's is too soft and hugging everyone. Why can't the argument be about whether the interpretation is compelling, rather than using crummy shorthand like "clearly this writer hates this character?)

    2) I'm not quite sure if you're saying that King relishes telling rather than showing, or that Batman does. If the former, I think your next complaint invalidates this - that Seeley is doing the heavy lifting - indicates that King is being very parsimonious with his telling. That's because King is going for emotional effect, not for completely detail oriented mechanics. (more on this later)

    3) Seeley IS answering a lot of questions that I have had about King's setting up of the wedding. I do think that it probably would have been helpful to know the things Seeley is putting out there several issues ago. But again, King's stories are really heavily dependent on the endings, so it's going to be 53 issues after #50 until I will feel able to actually make any real analysis on what the purpose of, so , Booster Gold's arc, or the Superfriends arc was. You can make some guesses now, but until the whole picture is in focus, I want to focus on trying to get the feelings that King is trying to share. And that's one of the reasons I don't like the Booster Gold arc - because I don't feel anything for anyone in it. But I do feel pretty deeply for King's Bruce and Selina, or Bat Cat.

    4) The collection of the trade is frustrating, but I think largely because of the demands of double shipping. The ability of artists to keep up is really shaping this narrative's building blocks. You can see King trying to impose a standard arc size of 5-6 issues for the first three arcs, and that drove his main artist, David Finch, away from the title. I don't know how he kept Janin, but possibly because he demanded the Kite Man issues to give Janin time to work. The structure of the last four or so months has largely been about trying to shape much smaller arcs - 2-3 issues - so that they can be done by one artist, and inserting one-shots and other things to get the whole thing done.

    Lastly, how does claiming knowledge of how hard King is working helpful to the discussion? I think it's much more justifiable to say that King doesn't seem competent than that he's lazy. I would disagree, but I've made similar claims about other writers, without making any assumptions about their moral character.
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  6. #126
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon1load View Post
    If you have to have someone write essays to try to make sense of your work in a mainstream comic then you are failing. If you don’t see how he has made Batman incompetent then I just don’t know what to tell you. Go back and read the run. Then go back a read almost ANY other writers Batman and maybe you’ll understand. As for the rest, I can make those claims because that is what his work shows. It shows a dislike for the character and an inability to do his job effectively.
    I didn't NEED the essays. The essays helped me to understand and articulate something I was already appreciating.

    Can you at least give some specific examples of Batman's incompetence in King's run, so we can talk about it in comparison? Because "read 50 issues of a comic and then read 1000s of other issues" isn't really something that is good for discussion. I HAVE read Morrison, Snyder, Rucka, Brubaker, Gabrych, Loeb, Miller, Dixon - and many other writers on Batman. Does my experience, having read them, and thinking that King isn't making Batman less competent than at least some of those writers, count for less than yours? I can't make you see things my way, but the fact that I'm asking for examples is my attempt to respect your opinion and try to understand it better.

    Again. Personal attacks are ridiculous.
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  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon1load View Post
    If you have to have someone write essays to try to make sense of your work in a mainstream comic then you are failing. If you donít see how he has made Batman incompetent then I just donít know what to tell you. Go back and read the run. Then go back a read almost ANY other writers Batman and maybe youíll understand. As for the rest, I can make those claims because that is what his work shows. It shows a dislike for the character and an inability to do his job effectively.
    People write essays on fiction and writing styles all the time. C'mon now. It's not like King paid this person to write the essay and explain his writing. Fans do that all on their own, some express different opinions.

    As someone who has read and has King's run on the same bookshelf as Morrison, Rucka's, Englehart/Rogers, Len Wein, Dini/Timm, Miller and others, I don't see how King's Batman is any weirder or more incompetent than others in its own way. I flipped through this issue briefly at my LCS, didn't the Joker "take himself" hostage and threatened to kill himself if Batman didn't comply to pray with him? Batman valuing all life, even the Joker's, to the point of letting his guard down is hardly anything new. Batman valuing the Joker's life after all the atrocities he has committed is fucking stupid, but that's not a problem King has created, it's been around for a great long while and will be here once King leaves.

    You are interpreting his work a certain way. Your claims that he dislikes the character and has no competence in his job is completely baseless, unless you were sitting with him while he typed the script.

  8. #128
    Incredible Member Armor of God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Okay, I'll try to go point by point.

    1) Is Batman ever a very emotionally expressive character? I don't think King's is significantly less emotive than other writers. And the way he's written his love for Selina is pretty effective for me. (It's also frustrating to me that people are making the same argument about King that they made about Tynion - that both writers hate Batman - when the claims being made are the opposite - King's Batman doesn't have emotion, but Tynion's is too soft and hugging everyone. Why can't the argument be about whether the interpretation is compelling, rather than using crummy shorthand like "clearly this writer hates this character?)

    2) I'm not quite sure if you're saying that King relishes telling rather than showing, or that Batman does. If the former, I think your next complaint invalidates this - that Seeley is doing the heavy lifting - indicates that King is being very parsimonious with his telling. That's because King is going for emotional effect, not for completely detail oriented mechanics. (more on this later)

    3) Seeley IS answering a lot of questions that I have had about King's setting up of the wedding. I do think that it probably would have been helpful to know the things Seeley is putting out there several issues ago. But again, King's stories are really heavily dependent on the endings, so it's going to be 53 issues after #50 until I will feel able to actually make any real analysis on what the purpose of, so , Booster Gold's arc, or the Superfriends arc was. You can make some guesses now, but until the whole picture is in focus, I want to focus on trying to get the feelings that King is trying to share. And that's one of the reasons I don't like the Booster Gold arc - because I don't feel anything for anyone in it. But I do feel pretty deeply for King's Bruce and Selina, or Bat Cat.

    4) The collection of the trade is frustrating, but I think largely because of the demands of double shipping. The ability of artists to keep up is really shaping this narrative's building blocks. You can see King trying to impose a standard arc size of 5-6 issues for the first three arcs, and that drove his main artist, David Finch, away from the title. I don't know how he kept Janin, but possibly because he demanded the Kite Man issues to give Janin time to work. The structure of the last four or so months has largely been about trying to shape much smaller arcs - 2-3 issues - so that they can be done by one artist, and inserting one-shots and other things to get the whole thing done.

    Lastly, how does claiming knowledge of how hard King is working helpful to the discussion? I think it's much more justifiable to say that King doesn't seem competent than that he's lazy. I would disagree, but I've made similar claims about other writers, without making any assumptions about their moral character.
    I'm not asking Batman to be Tom Cruise action hero flick. His Batman displays virtually nothing, the latest issue for example, the hell was he feeling there?

    His run is littered with telling instead of showing.
    This is no excuse. What if God forbid King dies tomorrow? You dont need 100 freaking issues to get a basic sense of something happening. Just write a meaningful story, thats all I ask.

    Finch left because he wanted to do his own creator owned work.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armor of God View Post
    I'm not asking Batman to be Tom Cruise action hero flick. His Batman displays virtually nothing, the latest issue for example, the hell was he feeling there?

    His run is littered with telling instead of showing.
    This is no excuse. What if God forbid King dies tomorrow? You dont need 100 freaking issues to get a basic sense of something happening. Just write a meaningful story, thats all I ask.

    Finch left because he wanted to do his own creator owned work.
    Again: 1) Batman is a very low affect character. What writers and artist really give him tons of expression, especially in the field? What is the point of crying or raging at Joker - the best thing to do with Joker is be as calm as possible, and look for openings. Joker didn't give any openings in the church. 2) Batman felt helpless, enraged, and terrified. Yes, that's me projecting onto a relatively blank canvas - but it's better than him sharing a laugh with the Joker as in TKJ, or embracing him and calling him "friend" in Endgame.

    The "telling vs. showing" is based on assertion at this point. No real arguments on either side.

    I think there's plenty of meaning in these first 49 issues (including Rebirth). Some of it I like. Some of it I don't. On the whole, I think it's been a solid, interesting run.

    Are you saying there's no aspect of the brutal twice a month schedule that played into Finch's decision to leave the title?
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  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    So Joker has the bride hostage. He grabs her before Batman even lands. Batman refrains from attacking him out of caution for her life. If he reaches for a batarang or a smoke bomb or stupidly charges him (Joker knows all of his tricks) like I've seen suggested, what's to stop the Joker from just shooting her the second he sees that? Like he pretty much had Batman by the balls in that instance, the whole scene takes place over the span of a couple seconds, and then Batman charges him and beats the crap out of him. What's the issue here? I don't need Batman to start screaming his head off or start crying to know he's pissed an innocent woman is killed. Him being outwardly stoic even when he's enraged is not something new.

  11. #131
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So Joker has the bride hostage. He grabs her before Batman even lands. Batman refrains from attacking him out of caution for her life. If he reaches for a batarang or a smoke bomb or stupidly charges him (Joker knows all of his tricks) like I've seen suggested, what's to stop the Joker from just shooting her the second he sees that? Like he pretty much had Batman by the balls in that instance, the whole scene takes place over the span of a couple seconds, and then Batman charges him and beats the crap out of him. What's the issue here? I don't need Batman to start screaming his head off or start crying to know he's pissed an innocent woman is killed. Him being outwardly stoic even when he's enraged is not something new.
    Completely agree. The silence was part of Batman being off footed, and desperately trying to avoid giving Joker any more advantage.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Completely agree. The silence was part of Batman being off footed, and desperately trying to avoid giving Joker any more advantage.
    It's been hard to talk anything positive about King's run at all really which is why I generally refrain from doing anything when these thread pop up.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naked Bat View Post
    If people want to buy a title they hate, more power to them. I, for one, still really love King's run. I can't wait for next issue. To each their own.
    Disagree about more power to you. It's like asking someone to punch you in the face and when they do, you non stop complain about it.

    I think King's run is fine it is currently keeping me buying trades. After a couple issues of All Star Batman I dropped the book instead of picking it up every month and complaining it.
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  14. #134
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    It's been hard to talk anything positive about King's run at all really which is why I generally refrain from doing anything when these thread pop up.
    Well, we have a thread for it now!
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  15. #135
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duke togo View Post
    Wow. This was truly bad. Read like bad fan fiction. Batman praying with the Joker after he just killed an entire wedding party including a bride and groom on their wedding day? Really?
    in addition to what you said...which I agree with 100%...Joker and Batman both get blasted buy the bomb while "praying" but BM in his highly protective suit is knocked unconscious while Joker is not even scratched. This is some really off-the-rails shytt.

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