How many innocent people mass murdered in the Marvel Universe in last 20 years?

[CentralPower]

That's just the way stories work.

Yes.

But, there is a difference between what we as readers/viewers care about than what other characters on page/screen care about.

Most of us would be background characters in the sort of comics we read. (No powers? No real connections to the corridors of power? Didn't think so.)

But, as a civilized man, I would want the perpetrators of mass violence cages/killed. I do want them caged/killed.


Atlantis is a hostile state. Atlanteans are bad guys. If they are not bad guys, they are still adversaries, and the Avengers should have turned Namor in to fishsticks any number of times.


The problem is even more blatant in various X-Men comics. Just about every monster the team deals with ends up getting invited over for Sunday dinner, or at least a summer BBQ. And, that makes the X-Men reprehensible.

There is nothing wrong with reprehensible characters. It can work, very well. But, in the case of the X-Men, or Marvel at large, it is not always clear if the writers know that the characters are behaving reprehensibly.

The idea that the Hulk has never killed anybody is one of the most idiotic things in comics. The Avengers probably should have slit the Scarlett Witch's throat well before "House of M". (At the very least, they should have tried.) She is a super-powered lunatic.

Showing the Avengers (or whatever team) as demonstrably unconcerned with the real damage that their battles cause justifies the sophomoric idiocy of Garth Ennis' "the Boys". Garth Ennis does not pitch high. But, he knows that his characters are depraved, which is more than can be said for most comic writers.

[Chris0013]

Yes.

But, there is a difference between what we as readers/viewers care about than what other characters on page/screen care about.

Most of us would be background characters in the sort of comics we read. (No powers? No real connections to the corridors of power? Didn't think so.)

But, as a civilized man, I would want the perpetrators of mass violence cages/killed. I do want them caged/killed.


Atlantis is a hostile state. Atlanteans are bad guys. If they are not bad guys, they are still adversaries, and the Avengers should have turned Namor in to fishsticks any number of times.


The problem is even more blatant in various X-Men comics. Just about every monster the team deals with ends up getting invited over for Sunday dinner, or at least a summer BBQ. And, that makes the X-Men reprehensible.

There is nothing wrong with reprehensible characters. It can work, very well. But, in the case of the X-Men, or Marvel at large, it is not always clear if the writers know that the characters are behaving reprehensibly.

The idea that the Hulk has never killed anybody is one of the most idiotic things in comics. The Avengers probably should have slit the Scarlett Witch's throat well before "House of M". (At the very least, they should have tried.) She is a super-powered lunatic.

Showing the Avengers (or whatever team) as demonstrably unconcerned with the real damage that their battles cause justifies the sophomoric idiocy of Garth Ennis' "the Boys". Garth Ennis does not pitch high. But, he knows that his characters are depraved, which is more than can be said for most comic writers.

What about Namor, Reed, T'Challa, etc...who were wiping out other Earths and their populations to save 616? Should they be executed for genocide?

[davew128]

Atlantis is a hostile state. Atlanteans are bad guys. If they are not bad guys, they are still adversaries, and the Avengers should have turned Namor in to fishsticks any number of times.

But where does it stop? Namor is head of state of a sovereign nation. By that token, they should have done the same to Doom in Latveria, and when the FF did EXACTLY THAT there was hell to pay for it.

The problem is even more blatant in various X-Men comics. Just about every monster the team deals with ends up getting invited over for Sunday dinner, or at least a summer BBQ. And, that makes the X-Men reprehensible.

and the X-Men have been called to task for it more than once.

The idea that the Hulk has never killed anybody is one of the most idiotic things in comics.

Yup.

The Avengers probably should have slit the Scarlett Witch's throat well before "House of M". (At the very least, they should have tried.) She is a super-powered lunatic.

I'm struggling to think of anything Wanda ever did before House of M that warrants such a treatment?

[Reviresco]

Atlantis is a hostile state. Atlanteans are bad guys. If they are not bad guys, they are still adversaries, and the Avengers should have turned Namor in to fishsticks any number of times.

When it comes to countries, it's rarely as simple as an entire country being bad guys. Likewise characters.

Atlantis is a hostile state / adversary because the surface world keeps attacking them, invading their sovereignty, instigating attacks, or trying to destroy their environment.

If you believe the Avengers have the "right" to turn Namor in to fishsticks for defending his country, then clearly Namor has the right to return the favor.

[PCN24454]

When it comes to countries, it's rarely as simple as an entire country being bad guys. Likewise characters.

Atlantis is a hostile state / adversary because the surface world keeps attacking them, invading their sovereignty, instigating attacks, or trying to destroy their environment.

If you believe the Avengers have the "right" to turn Namor in to fishsticks for defending his country, then clearly Namor has the right to return the favor.

While “surface world”, once again, is too broad of a term to use, you’re mostly right. It’s just annoying the flip flop that most Marvel relationships have.

[Huntsman Spider]

But where does it stop? Namor is head of state of a sovereign nation. By that token, they should have done the same to Doom in Latveria, and when the FF did EXACTLY THAT there was hell to pay for it.


and the X-Men have been called to task for it more than once.


Yup.

I'm struggling to think of anything Wanda ever did before House of M that warrants such a treatment?

She started out as a member of Magneto's Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants and even when she was an Avenger, there were at least one or two incidents before Avengers Disassembled and House of M where she went off the rails and became a threat due to being overtaken by dark magic or some kind of demonic entity. That's probably what CentralPower is referring to in his reasoning.

[davew128]

She started out as a member of Magneto's Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants and even when she was an Avenger, there were at least one or two incidents before Avengers Disassembled and House of M where she went off the rails and became a threat due to being overtaken by dark magic or some kind of demonic entity. That's probably what CentralPower is referring to in his reasoning.

and she was with Magneto for almost no time before she and Pietro left. That were almost immediately accepted as Avengers, though not without some controversy. By that token, almost every character we read should be taken to task.

As for being possessed, yes it happened twice. Again, it's also happened to most Avengers at some point.

[CentralPower]

Don't forget Byrne's run on "West Coast Avengers", and what she did to Wonder Man. (Not for the squeamish.)

Scarlet Witch has a track record of dangerous fits.

[GenericUsername]

Don't forget Byrne's run on "West Coast Avengers", and what she did to Wonder Man. (Not for the squeamish.)

Scarlet Witch has a track record of dangerous fits.

Wanda has a history of being possessed or manipulated. But it's not something that dominated her career by far. And she's not alone among magic users with that either. Most of those didn't turn out to be anything more than the Avengers saving her.

[GenericUsername]

She started out as a member of Magneto's Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants and even when she was an Avenger, there were at least one or two incidents before Avengers Disassembled and House of M where she went off the rails and became a threat due to being overtaken by dark magic or some kind of demonic entity. That's probably what CentralPower is referring to in his reasoning.

She didn't really become a threat. She got knocked out pretty easily. And her time with the Brotherhood was very uneventful. She left because Mags wanted her and her brother to take out Iceman.

[Huntsman Spider]

and she was with Magneto for almost no time before she and Pietro left. That were almost immediately accepted as Avengers, though not without some controversy. By that token, almost every character we read should be taken to task.

As for being possessed, yes it happened twice. Again, it's also happened to most Avengers at some point.

That's a point, but most Avengers don't necessarily have the kind of power to reshape reality itself that she does.

Don't forget Byrne's run on "West Coast Avengers", and what she did to Wonder Man. (Not for the squeamish.)

Scarlet Witch has a track record of dangerous fits.

I remember that one. That was nine different kinds of messed up and wrong.

She didn't really become a threat. She got knocked out pretty easily. And her time with the Brotherhood was very uneventful. She left because Mags wanted her and her brother to take out Iceman.

Hmm, didn't know that part. Thanks.

[GenericUsername]

That's a point, but most Avengers don't necessarily have the kind of power to reshape reality itself that she does.



I remember that one. That was nine different kinds of messed up and wrong.



Hmm, didn't know that part. Thanks.

She supposedly lost the ability to warp reality when she lost the Life Force. But with the history of Wanda's powers being generally up to a particular writer, they tend to forget what came before. She was never able to tap into a significant level of power unless she tapped into a separate power source (twilight sword, life force, etc.) That's the way it should stay. Powers on that level need a limit. Characters need a limit. I do not prefer Wanda as a plot device. Just a useful amount of power to contribute to heroism.

[MichelleDiMera]

Don't forget Byrne's run on "West Coast Avengers", and what she did to Wonder Man. (Not for the squeamish.)

Scarlet Witch has a track record of dangerous fits.

Shes not Selene or Enchantress. Shes not legitimately selfish. Her not having control can be debated but she wins no outright villain. Black Widown and Black Cat have intentionally hurt or killed. Not Wanda.

[Reviresco]

While “surface world”, once again, is too broad of a term to use, you’re mostly right. It’s just annoying the flip flop that most Marvel relationships have.

True, but I wasn't labeling the surface world as bad guys.