CW Green Arrow VS MCU Captain America

[Shellhead]

True to some extent, but again, he doesn't slow down much, and he sure as heck doesn't slow down taking hits from things less then WAY THE HELL STRONGER than a normal in-shape dude.

This is, by the way, true for all of the Avengers characters, really: the writers and directors are different between the solo movies and the group mash-up, so the representations are a bit different, depending on plot needs. There clearly wasn't a ton of, er, call it "verification," between Thor in Ragnarok and Thor in Avengers 3. He never really does the lightning thing from the Ragnarok bridge scene, which would have let him simply WALK through the beastie army and kill every single one of them at a range of dozens of meters at least. Don't get me wrong: his feats in IW are badass, just not the SAME as what he shows in Ragnarok. Black Panther doesn't really use the "absorb then AoE with absorbed KE" thing in IW, and that would have certainly been nice in the beastie fight.

Same thing often happens in comics. One extreme example was classic Dr. Strange. In his solo book, he was extremely powerful and versatile. In the pages of the Defenders, he mostly just levitated, fired bolts of bedevilment, teleported the team, and sometimes used the Orb of Agametto to discover clues/plot points.

[Carabas]

The MCU runs on true comicbook storytelling: feats are meaningless and drama defines what any given hero can do from scene to scene.

[moonknight11]

True to some extent, but again, he doesn't slow down much, and he sure as heck doesn't slow down taking hits from things less then WAY THE HELL STRONGER than a normal in-shape dude.

This is, by the way, true for all of the Avengers characters, really: the writers and directors are different between the solo movies and the group mash-up, so the representations are a bit different, depending on plot needs. There clearly wasn't a ton of, er, call it "verification," between Thor in Ragnarok and Thor in Avengers 3. He never really does the lightning thing from the Ragnarok bridge scene, which would have let him simply WALK through the beastie army and kill every single one of them at a range of dozens of meters at least. Don't get me wrong: his feats in IW are badass, just not the SAME as what he shows in Ragnarok. Black Panther doesn't really use the "absorb then AoE with absorbed KE" thing in IW, and that would have certainly been nice in the beastie fight.

I'm not sure I agree with all this. Even in Ragnarok he wasn't just walking thru a much smaller army of Mooks. He was smacking dudes around plenty, much like he did to the Outriders. The Outriders were also too spread out and not in a nice highway sized road. His big lightning smash also iced way more mooks than in Ragnarok.

BP used his AOE at least once I'm sure. It's just there were too many beasties.

[The Arbiter]

I'm not sure I agree with all this. Even in Ragnarok he wasn't just walking thru a much smaller army of Mooks. He was smacking dudes around plenty, much like he did to the Outriders. The Outriders were also too spread out and not in a nice highway sized road. His big lightning smash also iced way more mooks than in Ragnarok.

BP used his AOE at least once I'm sure. It's just there were too many beasties.

I agree with literally all of this. Its like you reached into my brain and pulled the words right out of my mind.

[big_adventure]

I'm not sure I agree with all this. Even in Ragnarok he wasn't just walking thru a much smaller army of Mooks. He was smacking dudes around plenty, much like he did to the Outriders. The Outriders were also too spread out and not in a nice highway sized road. His big lightning smash also iced way more mooks than in Ragnarok.

BP used his AOE at least once I'm sure. It's just there were too many beasties.

I'm more talking about how the powers worked, not the net effect. The good guys were about a millisecond from being overrun completely in IW until Thor Bifrosted himself into battle and turned it basically single-handedly. But he didn't have the constant streamers of lightning autohoming on everything that dared approach him. Not that it would have been more effective, really, because he was already a one-god army-wrecker in IW. Just the how, more than the result.

[Captain Smith]

The big charges and clash of armies is cool on screen but bad tactically. If the Wakandan and assorted forces had reasonable small arms and artillery support, they should have dug in and cut them down. We sort of learned this in WWI and even before that.

[Shellhead]

The big charges and clash of armies is cool on screen but bad tactically. If the Wakandan and assorted forces had reasonable small arms and artillery support, they should have dug in and cut them down. We sort of learned this in WWI and even before that.

Wakanda sat out WWI and has been generally avoiding contact with the rest of the world for a long time. They have great technology but limited experience with modern warfare.

[Captain Smith]

Wakanda sat out WWI and has been generally avoiding contact with the rest of the world for a long time. They have great technology but limited experience with modern warfare.

No history books or video. I would assume their military folks would study up. The better reason is PIS.

[SpiderClops]

No history books or video. I would assume their military folks would study up. The better reason is PIS.

Rule of cool more likely.

[Username taken]

Wasn't talking about that. The wave itself was said to have an aoe that ripped away concrete from the ground and blew cars away. None of which happened when used on Cap.



As I have stated; being punched by people who can flip over cars and casually punch through steel is enough to suggest that yes, he would walk away from that about as fine too.



That's a clear low showing that is contradicted by their last fight where Oliver lets the fight go on long enough for the hack to finish before dropping Diaz in a few hits.



Neither would Oliver based on his feats. To use inconsistent low showings as fact, as a comparison; would you argue Cap is as tough and strong as Iron Man now based off of the fight he and Bucky had with Iron Man? For that would fly in the face of Iron Mans feats, who has showed to harm Ultron and Asgardians like Loki.



It goes the same way Malcolms last fight with Oliver went down: a curbstomp.



Speed is given to Oliver. It's a slight edge, but it is there. Skill isn't, and it should be obvious that a guy who clears out rooms about as fast as a super soldier can is clearly far more skilled and suggest if their stats were comparable; Oliver would utterly destroy him in a fight with trivial ease.



Which he does indeed have over Oliver



Which is on par based on feats.



You mentioned this already .



Which he does have over Oliver, as I agreed too.



A lot of this just ignores everything that I have put out in this thread. PIS aside(which is what the situation you are referring to is about as Oliver himself has soloed those odds back in the first few seasons, and one time in this past season itself when he completely wrecked an entire police force at the police station on his own), Oliver has gotten back up from blood lusted Mirakuru beings that flip cars and casually punch through steel(Slade had also outright blitz normal humans, putting him -and in extension all Mirakuru beings- all around above Cap in all stats), took a blitz from Barry, shrugged off being bashed in the back by a metal armrest that a magically enhanced Damian Dahrk casually ripped off from a subway bench, etc. No normal human, or even peak human could shrug that stuff off. That is the type of thing Cap and Oliver could shrug off and take, and it supports the mountain feat. Another is when Oliver was shot by his mom and fell out of the office window afterwards. We don't know how he got into Felicitys car, but he didn't pull a spiderman to save himself.

Post Edited.

[big_adventure]

Wasn't talking about that. The wave itself was said to have an aoe that ripped away concrete from the ground and blew cars away. None of which happened when used on Cap.



As I have stated; being punched by people who can flip over cars and casually punch through steel is enough to suggest that yes, he would walk away from that about as fine too.



That's a clear low showing that is contradicted by their last fight where Oliver lets the fight go on long enough for the hack to finish before dropping Diaz in a few hits.



Neither would Oliver based on his feats. To use inconsistent low showings as fact, as a comparison; would you argue Cap is as tough and strong as Iron Man now based off of the fight he and Bucky had with Iron Man? For that would fly in the face of Iron Mans feats, who has showed to harm Ultron and Asgardians like Loki.



It goes the same way Malcolms last fight with Oliver went down: a curbstomp.



Speed is given to Oliver. It's a slight edge, but it is there. Skill isn't, and it should be obvious that a guy who clears out rooms about as fast as a super soldier can is clearly far more skilled and suggest if their stats were comparable; Oliver would utterly destroy him in a fight with trivial ease.



Which he does indeed have over Oliver



Which is on par based on feats.



You mentioned this already .



Which he does have over Oliver, as I agreed too.



A lot of this just ignores everything that I have put out in this thread. PIS aside(which is what the situation you are referring to is about as Oliver himself has soloed those odds back in the first few seasons, and one time in this past season itself when he completely wrecked an entire police force at the police station on his own), Oliver has gotten back up from blood lusted Mirakuru beings that flip cars and casually punch through steel(Slade had also outright blitz normal humans, putting him -and in extension all Mirakuru beings- all around above Cap in all stats), took a blitz from Barry, shrugged off being bashed in the back by a metal armrest that a magically enhanced Damian Dahrk casually ripped off from a subway bench, etc. No normal human, or even peak human could shrug that stuff off. That is the type of thing Cap and Oliver could shrug off and take, and it supports the mountain feat. Another is when Oliver was shot by his mom and fell out of the office window afterwards. We don't know how he got into Felicitys car, but he didn't pull a spiderman to save himself.

So, let's get this straight:

1. Rumbles Rule numero uno: We go by high end feats consistent with presentation. That last part is important. MCU Cap has ALWAYS been portrayed as explicitly superhuman. And his feats ALWAYS back that up. Ollie has always been portrayed as a very well trained, massively skilled, extremely tough regular guy. And his feats ALMOST always follow that. He's got a couple of outliers, but that's his general level. He CONSISTENTLY feels hits he takes from explicitly non-superhuman foes. Cap... doesn't. In fact, Cap almost never even takes a hit from non-superhuman foes. He just chews them up and spits them out. But when he does, he literally ignores them.

2. You don't get to extrapolate things like "Ollie is more skilled because he's knocked out a room of mooks and he's not on ultra roids so he must be more skilled than Cap." We get to go by what we see on screen. And on-screen, Cap is every bit as skilled as Ollie. Significantly moreso, really, but some of that comes from VASTLY superior choreography. Just watch the highway fight scene from Winter Soldier: Ollie never remotely shows anything on that level. Just not even close. Hell, any of the fight scenes from Winter Soldier.

3. You are ignoring explicit points. So, here's another, wrapped in a question with multiple parts: what happens to Ollie if he takes a two handed blast from Ultron in the chest and gets blown into a car at a relative velocity of perhaps 200kmh - car 100kmh in one direction, Ollie at 100kmh in the other? What happens to Ollie if he gets launched through a second floor window so hard by a bomb that he hits a car so hard that his body totals it? Are you saying that he walks those off? Despite literally nothing in his presentation showing same? Because Cap just gets up from stuff like that. Repeatedly. These aren't rhetorical questions.

4. You have to stop using "blitz from Barry" like it's a thing. Barry is the PISsiest character on TV, and he was definitely holding back MASSIVELY in that scene, to not hurt his sorta-friend/sorta-mentor.

5. Another question you won't and can't answer: what happens to Ollie in the elevator scene in Winter Soldier? Are you honestly trying to say that he lives through that? Cap gets tagged like six or seven times by those SHIELD/STRIKE stun stick things and does all of grimace while annihilating a dozen guys.

[master of read]

that whole last paragraph....................that wasn't really cool.

[Shellhead]

I'm a big fan of Black Panther, both the character and the movie. I'm also a big fan of democracy. The movie did actually show us that trial by combat is a lousy way to select a king, because Killmonger won the combat but had no respect for the traditions of the people of Wakanda. His passion for fighting for the oppressed victims of colonialism was admirable, but his methods were brutal and put many innocent people in danger.

[master of read]

I'm a big fan of Black Panther, both the character and the movie. I'm also a big fan of democracy. The movie did actually show us that trial by combat is a lousy way to select a king, because Killmonger won the combat but had no respect for the traditions of the people of Wakanda. His passion for fighting for the oppressed victims of colonialism was admirable, but his methods were brutal and put many innocent people in danger.

true. his views were very extremist and many shared those views.

but it's all the more tragic because of how t'challa treated him afterwards. he was still a wakandan and more over, he was his cousin. he and we as the viewer can only imagine what he would've been able to accomplish if BP's dad had taken him with him back to wakanda and giving him at least a proper home among his people. it's also very reflective of conditions in the ghetto where it doesn't take much for kids like him to fall down the wrong path. i speak from experience on that matter.

[Powerboy]

You have to stop using "blitz from Barry" like it's a thing. Barry is the PISsiest character on TV, and he was definitely holding back MASSIVELY in that scene, to not hurt his sorta-friend/sorta-mentor.

Just a brief and minor point. If it's the scene I think you are talking about, Barry wasn't holding back. In fact, he was specifically bloodlusted and Ollie was holding back. Of course, that just makes it even more P.I.S. on an almost SM vs FL level.