X-Men Red #5 - The Hate Machine *spoilers*

[Ambaryerno]

When with this? I like the black lagoon and triceratops mutants.

Avengers Academy during the early stages of AvX; Wolverine dropped the X-Kids off at the school where they were being held during the event. The Triceratops is Reptil, who isn't a mutant.

[TheCape]

Avengers Academy during the early stages of AvX; Wolverine dropped the X-Kids off at the school where they were being held during the event. The Triceratops is Reptil, who isn't a mutant.

Speaking of Reptil, is he still alive?, he was my favorite of the AA kids, but i couldn't go througth with Arena.

[Triniking1234]

When with this? I like the black lagoon and triceratops mutants.

Avengers Academy tie-in with AvX. Forgot the number.

[Angrel-San]

Jean Grey has been on point since she returned.

Also, Storm, Nightcrawler and Namor have been great in this.

Strong issue and better than the last one.

[butterflykyss]

Sex worker shaming? No. Just no.

*Flips scarf, glissades out the room*

I mean if Rudy Giuliani can what's the problem ?? lolol

[yogaflame]

I mean if Rudy Giuliani can what's the problem ?? lolol

Don't look to Rudy for what is acceptable....

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Untitled.jpg




Will Jean need more TP help to take on Nova? Or do you think Trinary and Jean will be able to build up a resistance to Nova's influence? If she can't influence anyone else she'd at least in part be inert, but still formidable.

[Hizashi]

Why is this still an ongoing debate is beyond me. It's right there on the pages...a little reading comprehension goes a long way.

I suppose the telepathy debate spawned from my comments here:

...and even though the issue addressed the implications of Jean's use of her telepathy, I don't think the problem is resolved. Admittedly, the last one is a problem I have with telepathy at large in the MU, and not just this book.

Yeah, that's my trepidation with Jean's current use of her telepathy.

Despite no malice or intention to disparage Jean herself, it's possible they were taken that way. I was merely talking about the hypothetical and logical conclusions and implications, which the book addresses for a second.

[Grey]

Untitled.jpg




Will Jean need more TP help to take on Nova? Or do you think Trinary and Jean will be able to build up a resistance to Nova's influence? If she can't influence anyone else she'd at least in part be inert, but still formidable.

I wouldn’t mind jean needing some outside help. But I imagine any help she gets will come from her own team.

I’d love to see some jean and Emma interaction. Honestly curious to see Emma’s thoughts on jean returning in general.

[butterflykyss]

Don't look to Rudy for what is acceptable....

so dont follow the example of the leader of the free world and his cousel??? a sign of the times I guess.

[Hizashi]

Is there a risk that Jean could take it too far. Sure. I am just saying she hasn't yet so harping on it at this point is odd to me. I'll cross that bridge if we get there.

I would hardly call what I was doing harping. I raised the issue as a small one that I had personally, and responded when asked why. I tried to explain it within the frame of the story and also more broadly, without directly accusing Jean of outright doing anything wrong. The book itself raises the question and I personally thought it was dropped too quickly. It's entirely possible that it will come up again and this issue was laying the groundwork for it; of course, it's possible that Kurt's comment is all we're gonna get on it. Since when are we not permitted to speculate on future events or the implications of a character's actions in a book?

Jean didn't take away someone's ability to choose completely. They still had a choice after effectively watching the video in their minds. They would have had no choice if they were being paralyzed.

Impeding their movement, in my opinion, is removing their freedom of action not freedom of choice, but then we're getting into determinism, compatibilism, etc.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy

Empathy is being sensitive and understanding to the feelings of others "without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner". Jean fully communicated the feelings of the mutants in an explicit manner so she did not force empathy. Jean gave those soldiers an explicit glimpse of what the mutants were feeling but whether they understood and acknowledged those experiences and feelings was entirely their choice and we saw explicitly that not all of them understood or acknowledged it because again Jakub was still ready to kill. You can't claim empathy was forced on someone when they are still prepared to murder them. Jakub's reaction completely negates your claim that empathy was forced.

Okay, she didn't force empathy. Isn't what you're describing worse? The distinction that empathy can't be communicated in an "objectively explicit manner" would suggest to me that doing so would be false empathy. The soldiers didn't put themselves in the mutants' shoes, Jean put the shoes on for them. Lives were saved, that shouldn't be ignored, but I don't accept at face value Taylor's assertion that Jean's action was squeaky clean. As for Jakub, we know that people can empathize with an adversary/opponent/victim and continue to harm them regardless, which could mean that without the idea or empathy taking root organically, it won't last. And that'll go to my point that Jean's use of telepathy here is not at all a long-term solution.

Not sure how this helps the argument. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in saying them being murderous assholes was due to Nova. Take that away and you are left with murderous assholes. I am not sure why you care so much about the rights of people willing to commit genocide against their own citizens. And sure, Jean can come back but she would be coming back only after mutants are murdered. I am not sure why you want to protect the minds of genocidal assholes over the lives of actual people being oppressed.

It's the banality of evil, the soldiers themselves weren't there to kill mutants, they were given orders to detain them, which is why I think they were ultimately capable of firing at them when the Red Team arrived. I'm sure that they'll appreciate not having become killers of innocents, but wouldn't assuming that they're naturally murderous have to mean that Jean altered their minds permanently? I'm not defending the actions they took, if you need or want clarification, you could ask instead of assuming you know better than I do what I mean. Regardless, these soldiers are small potatoes as long as Nova can continue to manipulate lawmakers; my hope is that Jean connects the dots that are already apparent, and free those people in power, because otherwise they'll just find soldiers willing to carry out their orders.

Don't know what they are going to do. I just know they aren't going to murder the people on that beach and some of them CHOSE understanding over murder. Maybe some of them will CHOOSE to drop out of the army rather than fulfill genocidal orders. Maybe they will CHOOSE to protest the treatment of mutants. Maybe they will CHOOSE will do nothing. I don't know. I just know that some of them CHOSE to do the right thing in that moment which is better than being forcibly paralyzed. The distinction that I think you are missing is that of CHOICE. Forcing them not to move doesn't allow them to actively CHOOSE whether to kill or not. Showing them how mutants feel and then letting them CHOOSE whether to continue their attack or not is much better. It is better to teach a man to fish than it is to give him fish. Your option just gives the soldiers fish as they would not have actively made a CHOICE. Jean by contrast gave them information that then allowed to to actively CHOOSE how to react.

I was trying to make a point that Jean's action was not a long-term solution and shouldn't be treated as such. Of course she saved lives, that's important, but she hasn't solved the problem. Obviously, that's what the book will answer. You'll have to forgive me, but I don't quite understand your analogy, I'd need more clarification before responding. Regardless, the objective there was to save the mutants on the beach, not to change the minds of the soldiers. The book states that Jean is going to weaponize the truth immediately after this display, which I hope doesn't mean that Jean is going to continue this on a larger scale.

I continue to say that I am not claiming that Jean did something unquestionably immoral, simply that there are greater moral implications that were raised and dropped, which bothered me personally.

[Tycon]

When with this? I like the black lagoon and triceratops mutants.

Everyone else covered everything, but the issue is Avengers Academy #30.

Speaking of Reptil, is he still alive?, he was my favorite of the AA kids, but i couldn't go through with Arena.

Yeah, he's still alive. In fact, he just made an appearance in Iron Man #600. He joined Leonardo DaVinci's new SHIELD-replacement program.

[mike7171]

Did you read the first sentence of the second paragraph of that post? I acknowledge that Jean's action isn't necessarily wrong, but why put anything into the minds of people who might not have wanted that at all? Jean is powerful enough to prevent the soldiers from moving long enough to give safe passage to the innocents. Kurt himself raises the dubious nature of what Jean did, and she defends it and the story frames it as morally correct, but I disagree with the idea that putting things into people's heads is a good thing.

Yeah, Jean can do that. But by doing that, will the soldiers realize that what they're doing is wrong? That they were mislead? No, all they would've known is the mutants escaped, and they weren't able to do anything about it. It falls under the "crushing the lies and weaponizing the truth" mantra. The saying where you can't judge people unless you've walked in their shoes...Jean just bridged that gap. Plus, she didn't really jump in until she saw its not gonna end peaceful if she doesn't do anything.

In issue one, she has this idea in her head on how to deal with the issue, hence that session with scholars from all-over.

[mike7171]

I have been out of touch with X-Men for a while ever since GM killed of Jean, but I find XMR entertaining. So i can't really compare Guggs, Soule, Bendis or whoever to TT. But I like TT's approach, his story telling, and not just smash here, smash there.

Not really sure why all the hating on Gabby and Sentinel-x. Sentinel-x being a transport is kindda cool, compared to the regular blackbird.

Though each comics tends to look slow, each one of them has their milestones. This one, i see 2. Trinary learned how to shut down the sentinites, and i think this is their first major mutant rescue with no casualties, other then bullet scratches on Sentinel-x.

Plus i've missed Jean so much, so her being the constant on all issues works really well for me.

[TheCape]

Everyone else covered everything, but the issue is Avengers Academy #30.



Yeah, he's still alive. In fact, he just made an appearance in Iron Man #600. He joined Leonardo DaVinci's new SHIELD-replacement program.

Thanks, i don't have much hope about seeing him again, but i'm glad that he didn't die .