X-Men Red #5 - The Hate Machine *spoilers*

[Grey]

Context please.
In that scan, Xavier is forcing her to agree with him, brainwashing her and changing her mind.
What Jean did is different, she created a hive mind kind of, so the soldiers were able to see the lives/fears/hopes/dreams of the mutants, and realize that they were innocent people and not monsters. Some of the soldiers saw this and put down their guns, but as we see with Jakub, there are those who will still persecute mutants even when shown the lives of the people they are attacking.

Basically, Xavier was brainwashing someone and taking away her freedom of choice, while Jean gave the soldiers the opportunity to make a choice, some chose to stand down while the others chose to attack. She didn't brainwash them and make them all mutant lovers.

...which I would actually love if she did. Honestly I'm getting a bit bored with Taylors Jean. Even Morrison, whom Taylor is copying, didn't make Jean this much of a boring, saviour, pacifist, speech giving/admonishing character. Atleast with Morrison she had her Cheeky moments, her Jealousy, her snark when talking to Emma and her anger. I want to hear Jean threaten to assault someone and leave them as a couple of screaming traumatized atoms.
Where's that red head fire?

Christ, Claremont wouldn't have Jean and Storm together without them doing something fun or talking to each other about normal stuff. He had a way of making storm and Jean strong and firm, able to give you a speech about mutant pride and compassion and peaceful coexistence and turn it at the end into a threat that would leave you cowering and sleepless at night, then in the same issue have the two of them as young ladies having fun.

That's the problem with the book. The characters hardly talk to each other about anything other than the main plot (except when honey garbage wants to say some nonsense). During the action scenes, there's no banter between the characters, okay maybe the situation has been dire for 5 issues, but even during the Xtinction eras, you had character personalities showing.
Meh,i hope it gets better, honestly I feel bored and like waiting for the whole arc to round up.

I think your last point about characters not talking to each other much is prevalent in comics in general Now, as the art is getting bigger and doing more of the heavy lifting in storytelling. I do agree that it is generally not a good trend.

I think back to extraordinary xmen.... like how much did jean talk to nightcrasler or colossus? In all new xmen by bendis how much did cyclops talk to angel? In blue, bloodstorm has really only had meaningful dialogue with a couple of members.

I mean it’s kinda crazy when you think how long these books go on and how little dialogue some characters share. I haven’t read comics for a long time but my observation is that older books placed less emphasis on epic art and more on dialogue. I’d rather the dialogue personally.

[Grey]

Destroying or otherwise modifying someone's body through physical force is also a type of playing god. I think telepathy just scares people more than normal violence, because it's beyond our normal experience. I think Xavier just changing peoples minds/making them stop is better than having Wolverine carve people up, for example. I mean, Kurt wouldn't even be alive unless Charles mind-controlled that whole mob who was about to kill him. If he had tried to punch his way through, Kurt would have died and there'd be multiple broken jaws/noses anyways.

I don’t disagree with you. Best explanation I can give is it’s comics and people want to see some action and not everything be solved with peace and telepathy. I don’t see an issue with telepathy usage to prevent violence but the problem is everyone’s line of what’s okay vs crossing a line is different and who ultimately is right in judging where that line should be?

[yogaflame]

Context please.
In that scan, Xavier is forcing her to agree with him, brainwashing her and changing her mind.
What Jean did is different, she created a hive mind kind of, so the soldiers were able to see the lives/fears/hopes/dreams of the mutants, and realize that they were innocent people and not monsters. Some of the soldiers saw this and put down their guns, but as we see with Jakub, there are those who will still persecute mutants even when shown the lives of the people they are attacking.

Basically, Xavier was brainwashing someone and taking away her freedom of choice, while Jean gave the soldiers the opportunity to make a choice, some chose to stand down while the others chose to attack. She didn't brainwash them and make them all mutant lovers.

...which I would actually love if she did. Honestly I'm getting a bit bored with Taylors Jean. Even Morrison, whom Taylor is copying, didn't make Jean this much of a boring, saviour, pacifist, speech giving/admonishing character. Atleast with Morrison she had her Cheeky moments, her Jealousy, her snark when talking to Emma and her anger. I want to hear Jean threaten to assault someone and leave them as a couple of screaming traumatized atoms.
Where's that red head fire?

Christ, Claremont wouldn't have Jean and Storm together without them doing something fun or talking to each other about normal stuff. He had a way of making storm and Jean strong and firm, able to give you a speech about mutant pride and compassion and peaceful coexistence and turn it at the end into a threat that would leave you cowering and sleepless at night, then in the same issue have the two of them as young ladies having fun.

That's the problem with the book. The characters hardly talk to each other about anything other than the main plot (except when honey garbage wants to say some nonsense). During the action scenes, there's no banter between the characters, okay maybe the situation has been dire for 5 issues, but even during the Xtinction eras, you had character personalities showing.
Meh,i hope it gets better, honestly I feel bored and like waiting for the whole arc to round up.

I agree with a lot of this. Taylor is trying to make Jean soooo perfect and good, and that just doesn't really register accurately. I also want a more balanced storytelling. Claremont had a good 8 member team in the Outback era(plus Gateway), and yet everyone had their own perspective and subplot going on; and he always managed to get those quiet slice of life moments in along with the action and plot points.

[Del torro]

So, how did Gambit transform from his Disguise into his Costume/Uniform?

A) He's wearing a holographic transformation device that makes him look like he is wearing clothes, but he's actually naked (stolen from Emma frosts book)
B) His clothes are made out of Nanomachines that can reconstitute to Form anything
C) His clothes are made of Unstable molecules that can be transformed to his costume when activated.
D) Jean used telekinesis to transform his clothes to his uniform (he's glowing pink and levitating)

[Grey]

So, how did Gambit transform from his Disguise into his Costume/Uniform?

A) He's wearing a holographic transformation device that makes him look like he is wearing clothes, but he's actually naked (stolen from Emma frosts book)
B) His clothes are made out of Nanomachines that can reconstitute to Form anything
C) His clothes are made of Unstable molecules that can be transformed to his costume when activated.
D) Jean used telekinesis to transform his clothes to his uniform (he's glowing pink and levitating)

I wondered that too.

[Wiccan]

So, how did Gambit transform from his Disguise into his Costume/Uniform?

A) He's wearing a holographic transformation device that makes him look like he is wearing clothes, but he's actually naked (stolen from Emma frosts book)
B) His clothes are made out of Nanomachines that can reconstitute to Form anything
C) His clothes are made of Unstable molecules that can be transformed to his costume when activated.
D) Jean used telekinesis to transform his clothes to his uniform (he's glowing pink and levitating)

We should probably ask Taylor on twitter lol. I thought either Jean or Trinary did it, since it's in line with the other costumes instead of just his usual.

[butterflykyss]

Context please.
In that scan, Xavier is forcing her to agree with him, brainwashing her and changing her mind.
What Jean did is different, she created a hive mind kind of, so the soldiers were able to see the lives/fears/hopes/dreams of the mutants, and realize that they were innocent people and not monsters. Some of the soldiers saw this and put down their guns, but as we see with Jakub, there are those who will still persecute mutants even when shown the lives of the people they are attacking.

Basically, Xavier was brainwashing someone and taking away her freedom of choice, while Jean gave the soldiers the opportunity to make a choice, some chose to stand down while the others chose to attack. She didn't brainwash them and make them all mutant lovers.

...which I would actually love if she did. Honestly I'm getting a bit bored with Taylors Jean. Even Morrison, whom Taylor is copying, didn't make Jean this much of a boring, saviour, pacifist, speech giving/admonishing character. Atleast with Morrison she had her Cheeky moments, her Jealousy, her snark when talking to Emma and her anger. I want to hear Jean threaten to assault someone and leave them as a couple of screaming traumatized atoms.
Where's that red head fire?

Christ, Claremont wouldn't have Jean and Storm together without them doing something fun or talking to each other about normal stuff. He had a way of making storm and Jean strong and firm, able to give you a speech about mutant pride and compassion and peaceful coexistence and turn it at the end into a threat that would leave you cowering and sleepless at night, then in the same issue have the two of them as young ladies having fun.

That's the problem with the book. The characters hardly talk to each other about anything other than the main plot (except when honey garbage wants to say some nonsense). During the action scenes, there's no banter between the characters, okay maybe the situation has been dire for 5 issues, but even during the Xtinction eras, you had character personalities showing.
Meh,i hope it gets better, honestly I feel bored and like waiting for the whole arc to round up.

beautifully said my friend!

[Del torro]

I agree with a lot of this. Taylor is trying to make Jean soooo perfect and good, and that just doesn't really register accurately. I also want a more balanced storytelling. Claremont had a good 8 member team in the Outback era(plus Gateway), and yet everyone had their own perspective and subplot going on; and he always managed to get those quiet slice of life moments in along with the action and plot points.

Yeah. As a Jean fan, I feel like he's forcing this version of Jean down my throat. People say he's getting Jeans voice, but he's only getting part of her voice and ignoring the other things about her. There's a playfulness to Jean, even when she's serious. I hoped Storm would do more, but this issue is bringing doubts. Laura is just here to chaperone Gabby, Nightcrawler is their magic school bus, Storm is the fly in the background person, Gentle is the one who will mention every issue that he's scared of his powers but have no other interactions with anyone else, Gambit will join Storm in the background, Jean and Trinity will save everyone from the nanites and beat Nova.
Obviously I'm a bit salty. The issue was good, 7/10,but I just feel dissatisfied. The character voices are the same. Kurt/Laura could have had Remys lines and you wouldn't know the difference. Kurt, Trinary, Storm, Remy could have had storms lines and your online be able to tell the difference. Everything feels luke warm.

Like in issue 1 of Morrison, they blew up genosha, issue 2 Nova took Charles body and shot her body with Charles in it, issue 3 beast was bludgeoned and Nova went to take the shiar, issue 5 the school was attacked and Jean ripped through the U-men. You get my drift, it all happened in a way that's dynamic and grabbed you. Here, stuff is happening, but the way it's written makes it feel lukewarm and passive.

[Hizashi]

What Jean did here was merely allow people to feel what another person was feeling but in the end, it was still up to that person regarding how they responded to it. They were not robbed of the ability to choose what to do with that information.

Whereas I got the sense that what Xavier was talking about was forcing someone to see the world as you do meaning you replaced their perspective with your own and robbed them of any ability to choose.

I don't see anything wrong with allowing someone to walk in another's shoes provided they still have a choice at the end of it.

Yeah. All Jean did was to make them see how mutants felt. That's why the general was still refusing to stop.

I have never understood the morality applied to telepathy in these comics. Why is it morally okay to beat someone up, cut their fingers off, blow them up, or what have you, to stop them/save the day, but it isn't okay to just telepathically stop them/change their mind?

Physical force is something that can be understood by all people, by humans, and it isn't always morally okay to use it to save the day, but there are consequences for those occasions. Telepathy can be morally dubious because humans can't understand it, and it's a case of the telepath putting something into or taking something out of peoples' minds without consent. It is the deepest violation I can think of to use that power on unwilling individuals. When someone chooses to enter a physical confrontation they usually accept the possibility of suffering physical harm themselves, but how do you accept the possibility that someone can literally get in your head? What right does any telepath have to make others feel anything - rage, sadness, empathy, antipathy - or to know their personal history without consent? Dialogue is an exchange among equals, but telepathy would give someone an extremely unfair advantage.

Context please.
In that scan, Xavier is forcing her to agree with him, brainwashing her and changing her mind.
What Jean did is different, she created a hive mind kind of, so the soldiers were able to see the lives/fears/hopes/dreams of the mutants, and realize that they were innocent people and not monsters. Some of the soldiers saw this and put down their guns, but as we see with Jakub, there are those who will still persecute mutants even when shown the lives of the people they are attacking.

Basically, Xavier was brainwashing someone and taking away her freedom of choice, while Jean gave the soldiers the opportunity to make a choice, some chose to stand down while the others chose to attack. She didn't brainwash them and make them all mutant lovers.

...which I would actually love if she did. Honestly I'm getting a bit bored with Taylors Jean. Even Morrison, whom Taylor is copying, didn't make Jean this much of a boring, saviour, pacifist, speech giving/admonishing character. Atleast with Morrison she had her Cheeky moments, her Jealousy, her snark when talking to Emma and her anger. I want to hear Jean threaten to assault someone and leave them as a couple of screaming traumatized atoms.
Where's that red head fire?

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that this instance of telepathy was necessarily wrong, but the implications are there. However, it can be used to raise mutant fear even further, and that would've been especially true if Jean had converted them into mutant-lovers. Compelling and controlling speech are the means to compelling and controlling thought, but telepathy removes the need to control speech, so of course people would fear mutants if they were capable of making individuals feel and experience things against their will.

Did Jean make the mutants see and feel what the soldiers did or was it a one-way street?

[remydat]

Physical force is something that can be understood by all people, by humans, and it isn't always morally okay to use it to save the day, but there are consequences for those occasions. Telepathy can be morally dubious because humans can't understand it, and it's a case of the telepath putting something into or taking something out of peoples' minds without consent. It is the deepest violation I can think of to use that power on unwilling individuals. When someone chooses to enter a physical confrontation they usually accept the possibility of suffering physical harm themselves, but how do you accept the possibility that someone can literally get in your head? What right does any telepath have to make others feel anything - rage, sadness, empathy, antipathy - or to know their personal history without consent? Dialogue is an exchange among equals, but telepathy would give someone an extremely unfair advantage.

So the army shooting at unarmed civilians is not an unfair advantage? If Jean didn't let them see what mutants felt, the alternative was death as either the mutants die or the army dies. There is no deeper violation to me than death so even if I had moral qualms about what she did which I don't, it was the best option given the circumstances. As lest you forget the bullets were already flying and the only logical way to prevent bloodshed was the option she took.

The comes a point when philosophy gives way to reality. The reality was death was staring those mutants in the face and Jean found a way to avoid it while sparing the lives of her enemies.

[Hizashi]

I am only speaking for myself but the way I see it is, changing someones’s thoughts and feelings is taking away their free will which is a huge ethical concern.

Beating them up and such, while certainly bad, isn’t the same issue. It’s violence yea but it’s not playing god.

There’s also the fact that different telepaths are held to different standards. That’s the price you pay when you want to be seen as a a moral person. On the spectrum of telepaths, jean tends to fall on the end with more ethical restraint. As a consequence, she can’t get away with as much when it comes to the court of public opinion. Imo is the (fair) price you pay when you choose to hold yourself to a higher standard.

Btw I’m not saying jean did that this issue- I don’t see any issues ethically with what she did. She exposes the “bad guys” to the mutants’ feelings, and most of them made the decision on their own that what fhey were doing was wrong. Which I think is pretty realistic. Often when you can have someone relate to victims on a personal level they show empathy.

Destroying or otherwise modifying someone's body through physical force is also a type of playing god. I think telepathy just scares people more than normal violence, because it's beyond our normal experience. I think Xavier just changing peoples minds/making them stop is better than having Wolverine carve people up, for example. I mean, Kurt wouldn't even be alive unless Charles mind-controlled that whole mob who was about to kill him. If he had tried to punch his way through, Kurt would have died and there'd be multiple broken jaws/noses anyways.

Pacifists who oppose tyranny risk having their bodies destroyed and losing their lives - but they understand the idea is beyond their bodies, and so I believe the prospect of telepathy being used to make people accept what an individual believes to be the morally superior belief is ironically the morally inferior decision. There's a difference between a telepath stopping the brains of an angry mob from sending the signals that would allow them to move and hit an innocent victim momentarily and a telepath permanently planting their moral ideology into the minds of individuals.

[SpiderClops]

The book has gotten back to its try-hard status.

-Gabby is annoying as usual.

-The best part in the whole book was Cass' meeting with president. It went pretty damm meh after that.

-I thought Cerebra was garbage. Nope, all you gotta do is paint a sentinel rainbow and flowers and it's automatically worse.

-Oh, just mind-link and it solves everything. Really Taylor? Now he has opened a plot hole that why doesn't every telepath and Jean just mind-link every time in similar situations?

-Freaking this week's Gold had more tension, way better teamwork, teammates other than Kitty get to do stuff, and Kitty had to struggle more to win than Jean. I said it.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Jean's hair, Nightcrawler's beard, and Namor's smoulder were all on point. Asrar nailed another issue.

I feel very lucky that Taylor is the one handling Jean post-Resurrection. I think her voice is perfect. Her compassion and empathy comes through, with a hint of the frustration and impatience she sometimes has.

I have a question about the metaphors in Red. The Hate Machine refers to the complex of anti-mutant sentiment exaggerated by Cassandra's Sentinites. These Sentinites act like real-world information mediators, like social media, misinformation, and bots online that have played a real role exaggerating hate. But in Red, unlike the real world, the hate machine takes away the agency of the hater. So while tiki torch marchers in our world are bigots by choice, the ones in Red are "used" by a greater evil and are given compassion. I'm not sure how this sits with me, thoughts?

This still beats any other X-book by far.

[Hizashi]

So the army shooting at unarmed civilians is not an unfair advantage? If Jean didn't let them see what mutants felt, the alternative was death as either the mutants die or the army dies. There is no deeper violation to me than death so even if I had moral qualms about what she did which I don't, it was the best option given the circumstances. As lest you forget the bullets were already flying and the only logical way to prevent bloodshed was the option she took.

The comes a point when philosophy gives way to reality. The reality was death was staring those mutants in the face and Jean found a way to avoid it while sparing the lives of her enemies.

Did you read the first sentence of the second paragraph of that post? I acknowledge that Jean's action isn't necessarily wrong, but why put anything into the minds of people who might not have wanted that at all? Jean is powerful enough to prevent the soldiers from moving long enough to give safe passage to the innocents. Kurt himself raises the dubious nature of what Jean did, and she defends it and the story frames it as morally correct, but I disagree with the idea that putting things into people's heads is a good thing.

[Hizashi]

Asrar draws Boobs weird :|

lol, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed. It just seems like he had consistency problems in this issue.