Categorizing Villains. Who's A-list? Who's B-list?

[HypnoHustler]

A-List: Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Venom, Vulture, Carnage, Black Cat, Electro,

B-List: Hobgoblin, Jackal, Rhino, Sandman, Scorpion, Mysterio, Kraven, Lizard, Chameleon, Morlun, Mister Negative, Shocker

C-List: Tombstone, Calypso, Molten Man, Hydro Man, Massacre, Spider-Queen, Beetle, Prowler, Tinkerer, Crime Master, Smythe/Spider-Slayers, Morbius,

D-List: Kangaroo, Overdrive, Jack O'Lantern, Screwball, White Rabbit, Demogoblin, Boomerang, Deadpool, Cardiac, Spot, Enforcers, Man-Wolf, Human Fly, Grey Goblin, Menace

This is the list I’d most agree with. Plus, we can add one-issue morts and “special cases” like Big Wheel, the Commuter, Type-Face and my namesake the ever funkalicious Hypno-Hustler to a bottom-of-the-barrel F-list.

[squirecam]

There was an interesting question on a podcast: How would you determine the ranks of Spider-Man villains? Who would be A-list? Who would be B-list? C-list? And so on?

A complicating factor is that there are some villains who are interesting because they're not very good at it.

A loser in a venom suit is still a loser.

[Mistah K88]

A loser in a venom suit is still a loser.

Let's speak on this,

When it comes to baddies who have multiple identities, would we consider those in the tier lists as well? Or do we always group them together like the title itself is A-List?

For Example:

Green Goblin
A-List: Norman Osborn
B-List Harry Osborn
Z-List Bart Hamilton (riding on the coat tails of the original's name, even losers like Hypno Hustler have their own identity)

When someone says Hobgoblin is B-List I can't imagine them talking about Phil Ulrich or Jason Macendale...

[ngroove]

Let's speak on this,

When it comes to baddies who have multiple identities, would we consider those in the tier lists as well? Or do we always group them together like the title itself is A-List?

For Example:

Green Goblin
A-List: Norman Osborn
B-List Harry Osborn
Z-List Bart Hamilton (riding on the coat tails of the original's name, even losers like Hypno Hustler have their own identity)

When someone says Hobgoblin is B-List I can't imagine them talking about Phil Ulrich or Jason Macendale...

When I say "Green Goblin", I would say, compounded as a whole, Norman / Harry Osborn, as Norman was THE Green Goblin 1964 - 1973, 1996 - , and Harry was THE Green Goblin, 1974 - 1993.

When I say "Hobgoblin", I would say, compounded as a whole, Roderick Kingsley / Jason Macendale, as Roderick Kingsley, despite the confusion of which stories was brainwashed Ned Leeds, was THE mastermind of Hobgoblin 1983 - half of 1987, 1997 - , and Jason Macendale, was THE Hobgoblin, for the most stories of any man claiming the mask of Hobgoblin, including on the Return of and Revenge of the Sinister Six, other half of 1987 - 1996.

Spider Slayers, I would say, compounded as a whole, Spencer and his Spider Slayers, 1965 - 1979, and Alistaire and his Spider Slayers, 1985 - 2013, Smythe.

However, when I say "Venom", at least as when I'm talking about Venom as a villain, I would only refer to Eddie Brock, and "Carnage", only Cletus Cassidy.

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Norman Osborn, Otto Octavius, and Venom are the obvious A-Listers. Kingpin became an A-List Marvel villain thanks to how Frank Miller tied him to Daredevil, and then there is that stupid 90s cartoon.

B-Listers are most of the other Lee/Ditko villains, Meteor Man and Mendel Stromm being obvious exclusions.

[Zeitgeist]

Surprised no one here put Slott in the A-List

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Speaking of Slott; I wish Mr. Negative was worthy of being a B-Lister, I really like that villain.

[Mister Mets]

Let's speak on this,

When it comes to baddies who have multiple identities, would we consider those in the tier lists as well? Or do we always group them together like the title itself is A-List?

For Example:

Green Goblin
A-List: Norman Osborn
B-List Harry Osborn
Z-List Bart Hamilton (riding on the coat tails of the original's name, even losers like Hypno Hustler have their own identity)

When someone says Hobgoblin is B-List I can't imagine them talking about Phil Ulrich or Jason Macendale...

As an example of this, a 1980s Spider-Man annual rated the "Goblin brothers" as one villain, since at the time there was a max of one Goblin at a time.

I'd personally put Norman, Harry and Kingsley as A-list, with Macendale as B-list, although Macendale benefits from an interesting background (former CIA agent) and for having a bit of monopoly on goblin stories 'til Harry came back.

[Alan2099]

I'd still put Macendale as A-list. Part of that is because it gets difficult at time to draw the line as to which Hobgoblin WAS Macendale and which was Kingsley. The mystery of who Hobgoblin was played a big part in things and they muddled the water quite a few times. Also, he was the one that was part of two big Sinister Six stories.

As for who counts as what, I'd also count pretty much every Mysterio as being the same character.

Kraven it gets a little bit tougher. Remember when they introduced Kraven's son and played up the differences between them, only to them write him as the exact same person ... and then he became "Al Kraven" and got a limited series which is right up there with Marville and Trouble as one of the worst stories marvel has ever put out.

[Zeitgeist]

Macendale is B- list at best.

Speaking of Slott; I wish Mr. Negative was worthy of being a B-Lister, I really like that villain.

I'd say he is, tbh.

[Frontier]

I'd put Macendale as a C-Lister, to be honest.

The only reason he would be higher then that is because he was attached to the Hobgoblin identity, but even then he was always the "Poor Man's Hobgoblin" compared to Kingsley.

[ngroove]

I'd put Macendale as a C-Lister, to be honest.

The only reason he would be higher then that is because he was attached to the Hobgoblin identity, but even then he was always the "Poor Man's Hobgoblin" compared to Kingsley.

Jason Macendale was Hobgoblin in:

All Demo-Hobgoblin stories, 1989 - 1992, including its origin in Inferno, Spider-Man #6-7 "Masques", the major Sinister Six tales, that Hobgoblin / Carrion tale, and a battle or two against Doctor Strange

Demogoblin's Death, Spider-Man #46-49

Spider-Man Video Games and an arcade, such as Return of the Sinister Six, Spider-Man II (Game Boy), Spider-Man vs the Kingpin, Spider-Man: the Videogame


Sinister Six / Four / Seven stories, the Return of the Sinister Six, Revenge of the Sinister Six, Funeral For An Octopus, Mark of Kaine

Spider-Man: the Animated Series - granted, the show's portrayal of Jason Macendale in the series played the original Roderick / Ned Leeds Hobgoblin mystery, with the name of Jason Phillip Macendale, but the name was Jason Phillip Macendale

All Hobgoblin toys, accessories, stationery, merchandise tied in with Spider-Man: the Animated Series

I repeat, any and all Hobgoblin appearances, mid-1987 - end of 1996, was Jason Phillip Macendale. The only Hobgoblin before him, before he was unmasked as Roderick Kingsley in early 1997, back while it was still 1995, the original Hobgoblin mystery was Ned Leeds.

[Vegeta]

I'd put Macendale as a C-Lister, to be honest.

The only reason he would be higher then that is because he was attached to the Hobgoblin identity, but even then he was always the "Poor Man's Hobgoblin" compared to Kingsley.

Same here, the minute Kingpin revealed the truth to Spidey about his identity Macendale was getting his butt handed to him on a consistent basis, he was a bit of a joke. (Although his creepy religious zealot demon persona seemed to build him up a bit, at least enough for Marvel to toss him in multiple books like Moon Knight and Blade for sales bumps.)

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

Speaking of Jason Phillip Macendale....

Pogo Platform

I'll remember him as this more than the 90s Spider-Man carton, all his Hobgoblin stories before Kingsley shot him, and the Demogoblin stuff.

I'd say he is, tbh.

He feels more like a C-List that had a short reign.

[The Overlord]

I'd still put Macendale as A-list. Part of that is because it gets difficult at time to draw the line as to which Hobgoblin WAS Macendale and which was Kingsley. The mystery of who Hobgoblin was played a big part in things and they muddled the water quite a few times. Also, he was the one that was part of two big Sinister Six stories.

As for who counts as what, I'd also count pretty much every Mysterio as being the same character.

Kraven it gets a little bit tougher. Remember when they introduced Kraven's son and played up the differences between them, only to them write him as the exact same person ... and then he became "Al Kraven" and got a limited series which is right up there with Marville and Trouble as one of the worst stories marvel has ever put out.

The problem with Mysterio is he seems more like a gimmick then a character, its kinda sad one of his best stories is in Daredevil. He has some kinda fun stories, but he often falls into a rut and the more the stories stick to the same formula, the less fun they become.

I never liked Macendale Hobgoblin, by the time they revealed him as Hobgoblin, he always came off as some slimy jerk who's ego outweighed his abilities.

You are right about Kraven, he has been coasting on that one story and Al Kraven, his son, sucks.

Really in terms of being iconic, having some great stories and being impactful, I would say Green Goblin (Norman), Dr. Octopus and maybe Vemon are A-list. Maybe Kingsley too, but man he often gets the short end of the stick.

Most of the other Ditko villains fall into B-list, they are fun, colorful and have the occasional good story, but often fall into generic villainy gimmick stories. I will put Carnage here too, I do nnot like him, I think he is a one trick pony, but hey, he has his fans and he has his moments.

C-list I would say villains like Hammerhead and Shocker, very under developed characters, but still can be menacing in the right story, but could use a bit of a revamp.

D-list would be joke villains like Walrus, Big Wheel and White Rabbit.