Red Hood & The Outlaws #23 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[Aioros22]

In issue 0 he finds out at the computer in the cave (Bruce likely had made a search about it before he went for patrol) that Catherine was still alive in the middle east and leaves alone to go after her. It`s implied (supposely to make Joker`s account in the next story all the more disturbing) that it was a set up because the Joker was there when he reunited with his mother at her tent (that doesn`t mean it was a set up from her part, course only that it`s made to look like it is).

Dark points at the red haired woman at his funeral (page 17) being Catherine, having been shielded by Jason and managed to escape alive and that it was a dropped plot point from Loedbell. I wouldn`t know but Dark does engage somewhat with the L on Twitter so it might be so.

[Aioros22]

We should know that his telling ends with "That`s my story and I`m sticking with it" which does swimmingly with the next one.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

And amist all the conversations or confrontations he`s had about the subject with Bruce and Alfred, his mother still being out there just didn`t come over?

"Jay will you stop talking about your death! Go see your mother please. You saved her, have comfort in t--"

"My mother is alive??"

"Yeah, she was at your fun--"

"And nobody saw any interest in telling me??"

"--you know, business, Gotham never sleeps lol"

Seems far fetched to me and brings home the point. It`s not that the narrative can`t be doable, you just need to addreess it and it hasn`t.

Couple of things here

-Yeah, because Bruce is totally not the kind of guy to hide things up because he knows what's beter for his family.
-Isn't like both Bruce and Alfred are up to the neck on all kind of crazy stuff every single day to be able to remember every single event/person they met over the years.
-Jason is totally the only character who has had dropped plot points like these.

[JasonTodd428]

In issue 0 he finds out at the computer in the cave (Bruce likely had made a search about it before he went for patrol) that Catherine was still alive in the middle east and leaves alone to go after her. It`s implied (supposely to make Joker`s account in the next story all the more disturbing) that it was a set up because the Joker was there when he reunited with his mother at her tent (that doesn`t mean it was a set up from her part, course only that it`s made to look like it is).

Dark points at the red haired woman at his funeral (page 17) being Catherine, having been shielded by Jason and managed to escape alive and that it was a dropped plot point from Loedbell. I wouldn`t know but Dark does engage somewhat with the L on Twitter so it might be so.

I always assumed that the red haired woman there was actually a recently healed Barbara Gordon. She was one of the people at his funeral before the reboot so it made sense to me that she would still have been there. I actually never thought the woman at the funeral was Catherine to begin with.

[Aioros22]

Yeah, Barbara seems an obvious choice but there is also a woman mourning at Jason`s grave in Joker`s storytelling so you can assume it`s supposed to be Catherine.

[Rise]

I actually thought it was the rumoured sister. I mean, didn't you Dark said it was supposed to be her and there was supposed to be a story involving her? When did it become Catherine?

[Aioros22]

Couple of things here

-Yeah, because Bruce is totally not the kind of guy to hide things up because he knows what's beter for his family.
-Isn't like both Bruce and Alfred are up to the neck on all kind of crazy stuff every single day to be able to remember every single event/person they met over the years.
-Jason is totally the only character who has had dropped plot points like these.

. Basically, a new level for Bruce and Alfred in terms of how they control things. Okay, let`s run with that, in what way would it be better to keep his mother being alive hush after he comes back and makes some amends with the family? The only reasoning I can find validation at, would be if she was indeed guilty of the set-up with the Joker and Bruce sent her packing after the funeral never to show her face again. How feesible is that Jason, with his resources and connections, never found about that engagement? Back then, he was a wee Robin by the time he found out what happened to both of his parents, whether Bruce was hiding that information from him or not.

. This one is just weak reasoning. She`s the mother of one of their own who was involved in his death. The event was a game changer.

. Which is part of what I am saying. Option one has pannace but again, instead of just assuming...

[Aioros22]

I actually thought it was the rumoured sister. I mean, didn't you Dark said it was supposed to be her and there was supposed to be a story involving her? When did it become Catherine?

All these questions just bring home how vague the whole thing has been. Te whole sister thing has been alluded from one panel and never been touched again.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Basically, a new level for Bruce and Alfred in terms of how they control things. Okay, let`s run with that, in what way would it be better to keep his mother being alive hush after he comes back and makes some amends with the family? The only reasoning I can find validation at, would be if she was indeed guilty of the set-up with the Joker and Bruce sent her packing after the funeral never to show her face again. How feesible is that Jason, with his resources and connections, never found about that engagement? Back then, he was a wee Robin by the time he found out what happened to both of his parents, whether Bruce was hiding that information from him or not.

This one is just weak reasoning. She`s the mother of one of their own who was involved in his death. The event was a game changer.

I never anything about them keeping her status secret, I said that it simply slipped their minds among all the stuff they have to keep track on. Plus years passed between Jason's funeral and his return. But let's take the assumption they're keeping her status a secret. It doesn't necessarily means she was guilty it can also be simply for her own safety, that is something Bruce already pulled with Tim's parents (that far as I know are still in hiding after the mess that was B&R Eternal) And following with the example of Tim's parents, they were missing for years until some writer decided they wanted to use them.

.Which is part of what I am saying. Option one has pannace but again, instead of just assuming...

That is just how comic books work.

[Rise]

Tim's parents weren't kept secret from Tim. He was fully aware where they were and he also the one who designed their house.

And the excuse that "It's simply slipped their mind" is just a flimsy one. It's why I say it's better to not try so hard to connect them together when it's obviously a recton (which I still don't understand why it's so hard to accept it or why it's a bad a thing. Is anyone here upest about what Morrison's did with Jason was rectonned?)

[JasonTodd428]

Yeah, Barbara seems an obvious choice but there is also a woman mourning at Jason`s grave in Joker`s storytelling so you can assume it`s supposed to be Catherine.

To be honest I didn't believe a word of Joker's story there. He may believe that he had a hand in molding Jason in the direction he wanted but I don't believe for one second that he actually did because that takes agency away from Jason and frankly he has enough issues without this one. I suppose that woman could have been Catherine but since it wasn't made clear from the get go that makes it difficult to say it was her.

[magpieM]

Wow this issue is really emotional, I was in tears reading those letters with Jason...

"Love alone don't fix anything" that's so true, so powerful, and I love the last scene, especially when his monologue was yelling the same thing like those bubbles

Catherine being his birth mother seems to fit here quite well, but I wish there could be some explanation about why Jason went to save his 'birth mother' in Quarc. Sheila in DITF may just be a 'plot device' without any character development before and after, but she happened to be in a critical position to rationalize Jason's motive to go to Quarc, and add a lot of weight to his death.

(And I don't like the idea that Joker lied to Jason that Catherine was alive and lured Jason to be there, because it makes Jason's action looks reckless. I remember in DITF Bruce found Sheila. He took Jason with him to meet her and introduced Jason to her.)

I knew Willis' coffin is gonna be empty! It has to be!

And about Jason's illness in his early days: It's possible that he was born premature, considering Catherine's condition. Then he had a lot of health issues (partially due to poor immunity)

[Rise]

I was willing to accept that Joker was just "unreliable narrator" if it wasn't for the fact that he seem to know stuff about Jason in the DOTF tie-in that he shouldn't.

[magpieM]

I began to see the growing possibility that the guy who was killed by Artemis was Willis, otherwise why would Bizarro be so afraid of letting Jason know about the letters? Ma Gunn wanted Jason to know what happend to his father, but Bizarro is worried about what would happen next. He may not know every single details in the letters, but he knows that once Jason figured out his father's whereabouts, he'll soon discover what Lex Luthor and Artemis did. He can't let that connection to be made.

Artemis may or may not show in future WW books, but now her history seems to be tied to Jason's family past in a very personal way

We don't know what experiment Willis was treated. If he really was the guy killed by Artemis in #22, where is his body then? Maybe he could heal and wake up again? Could he be the 'suit guy' Solitary ? He seemed so keen to put this Dark Trinity together. But if he is Willis, why would he want to put his killer and his son in one team?

[G-Potion]

If the experiment turns a guy like Willis into Solitary, that's seriously dark.

To be honest, I had a moment thinking it could be the case of foreshadowing when Jason saw the photos. The angle difference between their faces in the photos just looked creepy to me.