Red Hood & The Outlaws #23 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[Rise]

Tim following the dynamic duo is mostly fan fic, that was never show like that in the comics, there you only see him shoot pictures of one fight between Batman and some villian ( and from what it looks like in broad Daylight) in the beginning of A Lonely Place of dying.

And what people also keep to forget is, that story was written before the "Batman is just a Urban Myth" thing. In the 80s Batman was appearing openly in Public.

So, your pretty much saying that Tynion's story is fan fic since it was heavily implied that he was following the dynamic duo because he had several impossible pics of them.

[Aahz]

So, your pretty much saying that Tynion's story is fan fic since it was heavily implied that he was following the dynamic duo because he had several impossible pics of them.

Which story are to referring to?

In Detective Comics #965 there are only the pictures from the fight in the original Story.

My point is that, even if almost every Fan Fic writer treats it as canon, that Tim following the Dynamic Duo around for month by Night shooting photos, was as far as I can tell never shown or said anywhere in the comics.
Unless Tynion did something that I over read, which would make it still just a recent retcon.


Btw. even Tim being interested in photographie doesn't really have any basis in comics, Lonley place of Dying is afaik tell the only story where he used one

[Rise]

Tim was able to tell that Dick is Robin and this can't happen unless he has been stalking the due enough to recognize that he is the boy from the circus and was able to tell when a new Robin take over. Not mention that Tim figuring out that Batman = Bruce from just one pic seems more unbelievable and proving further EMarie's point.

And why you are turning this into a discussion about Tim? What "fan fics writers" consider canon about Tim is completely irrelevant to the discussion here.

[Aahz]

Tim was able to tell that Dick is Robin and this can't happen unless he has been stalking

In his original origin he recognized that Dick was Robin, when he saw footage in TV where Robin did a quadrupole somersault which he was able to do because he had Nightmares about the Death of Dicks parents for years.


In the end the similarity between both (Jason stealing the tires and Tim figuring out the identity) is, that Batman was quite different at the time these stories were written, and it was in both cases back then easier to do than with the current version. The Batmobile was just a Sports Car with a few extras and Batman operated more public.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

It's not about having a different views, it's actually completely different story.

Jason believing there's no good in his father and that he doesn't love him is a different point of view. Him telling a complete false story about how his parents met, the circumstance of his brith and where his father was caught is lying.

Willis didn't suddnly become father of the year after this issue because he still failed in providing a safe environment for his son and securing his future. It's not like he pretended to be a good dad either and even admitted he made mistakes. The purpose of the letters was Willis wanting his son to not repeat his mistakes and for him to know that he loves him so I find it less likely that he is lying about the events in his letters.

What you seem to willingly ignore or overloook is that is not that Jason is liying straight to the reader's face when narrating his story, is that for him that is what happened. The story ending with him "This is my story and I'm sticking to it" is meant to have him admiting there might've been things that doesn't fit logically or that might've been wrong but that those are things of no consequence for him.

Willis on the other hand, does subtly changes the narrative as the letters progresses. In the first letter he outright admits he chose to be a dealer and how he got what he had coming. By the second the narrative changes so he was just a "victim of the circumstances" and pretty much shifts the blame for everything to external factors (it was Catherine the one who couldn't stop taking drugs, he doesn't say what he was doing before getting Catherine pregnant) by the third one is all about him and Jason spending time together and how Jason is the reason for everything he does...despite the first letter having him admit they didn't spend much time together. Do you now how the letters slowly manipulate the reader to paint Willis on an increasingly good light? That said, at this point Willis could've bought his own hype and truly believe what he was writing but I'm sure that will be adressed on future issues.

In the end the similarity between both (Jason stealing the tires and Tim figuring out the identity) is, that Batman was quite different at the time these stories were written, and it was in both cases back then easier to do than with the current version. The Batmobile was just a Sports Car with a few extras and Batman operated more public.

This is pretty much the reason for all the recent retcons, yeah. In the 80s-90s writers were able to write whatever they wanted without worrying about having to make it fit an ongoing narrative, but as the industry evolved, they suddenly had to consider a bunch of new factors that made impossible for those early stories to seamlessly fit on the current ongoing narrative.

[JasonTodd428]

That was him just following his plans to hurt Batman, that was why he didn't bothered to learn Jason's name. Is a single event against a long string of those, and even then, what's so random about a thug and Gotham's biggest criminal being at the same underground clinic at the same time? If anything it would've been weirder they didn't cross paths before. As for Jason being with Willis, who else could've carried him there?

He may not have bothered to learn Jason's name initially but knowing his name doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't also obsessed with the street kid he was grooming to be Robin. I also find it hard to believe that he didn't actually learn his name if he was following the goings on of Jason's family. Surely the name would have come up at some point even if it was being shouted by Willis. It's far more likely that he learned it at some point and he simply may not have cared. There's a distinction there between never knowing a name and simply not caring about the name.

Willis and Joker being at the exact same clinic is a completely random coincidence. It's probably not a usual occurrence for Joker to be seen in one so the fact that he was there is random and only in service to the plot much as Batman deciding to park his car in Crime Alley that night was. I'm not going to disagree about it being weird if they hadn't ever crossed paths though. Willis was henchman for hire after all so it's feasible. The thing is that the 0 issue story made it seem as if Joker had never seen the guy before that specific point and it didn't appear, from what I remember, as if Willis was working for him at the time either. That's why I felt the whole thing was random.

As for your last point I'd don't know maybe someone he was working with that night could have brought him there.

In any case we're never going to see eye to eye here so let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[Aioros22]

Tim knew enough about the dinamic duo, hence why fics estrapolate it, because the door was opened. He obviously knows who Dick is and his overall story (he stalks him at the circus) and he knew that the previous Robin - who wasn`t Dick- vanished or died and that caused Batman to become darker and edgier.

[Aioros22]

What writers? Winnick treated the dynamic Joker-Jason completely secondary to the Jason-Batman one, Morrison didn't even touch it, AK be the game or the comic treated the whole thing as Joker grooming Jason to hate Jason as the ultiate eff you to the guy, Snyder only use the dynamic as an excuse to throw quips around, Tynion was more interested on tying Jason with R'as for some reason. Lobdell is the only writer to actually delve into their relationship even if he didn't used the Joker himself to do it.What writers? Winnick treated the dynamic Joker-Jason completely secondary to the Jason-Batman one, Morrison didn't even touch it, AK be the game or the comic treated the whole thing as Joker grooming Jason to hate Jason as the ultiate eff you to the guy, Snyder only use the dynamic as an excuse to throw quips around, Tynion was more interested on tying Jason with R'as for some reason. Lobdell is the only writer to actually delve into their relationship even if he didn't used the Joker himself to do it.

For instances. I especifically said it`s not as important in the stage as the Joker/Batman dinamic but it`s there. Loedbell`s plainly done it since DOTF and Tomasi in the AK comic, which is official for the game as far as they take it, dwelves in Joker growing up to groom Jason to be his legacy, not only to piss Batman off but because he sees something in Jason that for instances, he didn`t see in Harley who was his supposed sucessor and whom he quickly dismisses in detritment of him. His last conversation before he dies with him is a father/son dinamic.

He started with one goal and that goal become something greather than himself.

Even the game approaches this on a surface level. What the Joker does, to piss Batman as it is, is to transmute Jason something "better" than either him or Batman, because only that can bring Gotham to its knees.

Oh it will

Cool, when and if he does it then I`ll consider it.

[Aioros22]

As far as Loedbell having one origin only that is malleable depending where the book aims to go, I`ve no issue with it, he just needs to be careful with details. I can buy Jason having been arrested before the tires or even his previous arrest by Batman being the reason he decided to steal the fancy tires in the first place, a sort of screw you mr super police man and I`ll make some quick buck too while I`m at it but only one of the instances can be defined as the nigth they first met.

[DIVINITY]

Finally got around to reading this today, not sure how I feel about it just yet, (absent dad plot) but I could see Jason putting a bullet in Penguins head before all’s said and done....

Which would lead to the big showdown with Bruce in #25...

Willis! Empty Grave! The plot thickens...

[Aioros22]

Tim was able to tell that Dick is Robin and this can't happen unless he has been stalking the due enough to recognize that he is the boy from the circus and was able to tell when a new Robin take over. Not mention that Tim figuring out that Batman = Bruce from just one pic seems more unbelievable and proving further EMarie's point.

And why you are turning this into a discussion about Tim? What "fan fics writers" consider canon about Tim is completely irrelevant to the discussion here.

Not to mention, he knew where Dick lived outside the Circus. Yeah, he was stalking them.

[oasis1313]

I come to Jason's page to escape Tim Dreck. Jason is worth a thousand Drecks.

[Aioros22]

You need to stop whinning that much about a fictional character. We don`t care. At least I don`t.

[deadboy80]

Just picked this title up again. Love it. Hoping there is a little more to this than, (the penguin sent my dad up the river and Batman knew the whole time so im gonna kill one and be pissed at the other story.) Not to mention how that doesent really fit with Bruces thoughts on family. But whatever. Love the art love RedHood, Wish Tim could get his own monthly again.

[Qwerty]

I finally got to read this
It came damaged two weeks ago and then I forgot it last week. Omg the art was so dope. And this is from someone who gets upset anytime Soy isn't on Pencils.