Red Hood & The Outlaws #23 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[Aioros22]

The Shelia/Catherine bit is confusing and I think that needs to be clarified. Catherine supposedly died of an overdose. Jason found her and Willis is informed of it. Yet she ends up in Qurac? Why did she go there? How is she alive especially if Joker wasn't involved in that? If Joker did trick Jason implying he knew who they were back then why didn't Bruce ever connect the dots?

I wonder what Jason's medical problems were.

Willis was humanized in a beautiful way and shows more of the life of a henchman. I might add more later but this was a great issue.

And that`s my only issue. It`s not that I need Sheila in my life (or disregard it in the same manner), is that they never gave proper detail to Catherine`s status after her presumed death and it`s only mentioned by two unrealiable narrators. Jason because understandibly he was nothing but a kid and grew up with bias or a distorted lens and Joker because he wants to mess him up some more.

And yeah, especific details regarding his origin were weaved by Loedbell again but none of that is terrible. This time the person telling the story should know better because he was there (that and continuity is malleable to suit the writer`s plot or character rendering).

[EMarie]

Sure, Lobdell changes things but he also keeps details in place it the bat scar. Willis said no one had ever chosen him before Jason's mom which sounds like his family was either he had a bad relationship with them or they died early. As for overthrowing it well It's fun to think of the possibilities. Mainly because we have to wait another month for the next issue.

[Aioros22]

My favorite was the roof bit, it reminded me of Jason's talk with Bizarro about hearing the city and how much he loved it.

Yes and as noted Alfred once called him in similar fashion. It`s also very Lion King (or the movie Disney ripped it off from, for more accuracy) with both scenes feauturing the sun shining over the city.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

And that`s my only issue. It`s not that I need Sheila in my life (or disregard it in the same manner), is that they never gave proper detail to Catherine`s status after her presumed death and it`s only mentioned by two unrealiable narrators. Jason because understandibly he was nothing but a kid and grew up with bias or a distorted lens and Joker because he wants to mess him up some more.

And yeah, especific details regarding his origin were weaved by Loedbell again but none of that is terrible. This time the person telling the story should know better because he was there (that and continuity is malleable to suit the writer`s plot or character rendering).

Chalk that to editorial derailing Lobdell's plans. Catherine survived Qurac (she's the mourning red haired woman seen at Jason's funeral on issue #0) but after being replaced by Tynion and subsequent shake ups, Lobdell lost any interest on following that plotline.

I think you guys overthinking it and trying so hard to connect them together. Comics recton stories all time and especially when it's not well received like the 0 issue which is why they brought back his origin back in rebirth. Lobdell isn't strange for this kind of things either and it's not a bad thing.

Thing is, Lobdell has gone on record saying that far as he is concerned, everything he has written is part of the same continuity, there's no retcons.

[Rise]

Sure, because writers never say things in interviews that never come to pass.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Sure, because writers never say things in interviews that never come to pass.

When it comes to continuity, Lobdell has been very reliable, going so far to acknowledge stuff from other writers even if contradicts his own stuff and/or it would've been easier to ignore.

[Aioros22]

Better to consider it malleable continuity. The essential is there and the writer applies what he believes works best for the current character. You can excuse this in several subtle ways, like the different point of views but it`s mostly that.

Catherine could have survived. Joker could have been stalking some. Jason could have been busted by Batman before stealing the tires. But detailed it all in the same continuity requires storyboarding to fit it seamlessly.

[Aioros22]

Chalk that to editorial derailing Lobdell's plans. Catherine survived Qurac (she's the mourning red haired woman seen at Jason's funeral on issue #0) but after being replaced by Tynion and subsequent shake ups, Lobdell lost any interest on following that plotline.

It`s plausible but just saying, where is the detail? That plotline for instance, one would assume his mother would still be alive by the time the new52 kicks in but we never see Jason talking about her as if she was. What happened? Did she end up dying afterwads anyhow? Wouldn`t Bruce look up for her? Did the Joker managed to get her again?

I get it, Loedbell went to Superman and Tynion changed things and he lost interest but as far as Rebirt goes we`re still with the same vagueness regarding the issue.

[JasonTodd428]

That issue was a kick to the gut. I loved how the letters humanized Willis adding more depth to the character then there was previously. Kudos to Lobdell really.

Chalk that to editorial derailing Lobdell's plans. Catherine survived Qurac (she's the mourning red haired woman seen at Jason's funeral on issue #0) but after being replaced by Tynion and subsequent shake ups, Lobdell lost any interest on following that plotline.

He may have lost interest in following that particular plot line back then and understandably so but I agree with the others that it needs some clarification at this point if he's going to keep referencing Catherine as Jason's only mother. It could stand to be fleshed out a bit in my opinion because it would make the backstory that much stronger if he would clear that detail up a bit.

[kiwiliko]

Yooo late to thread but dang I enjoyed this issue and really thought there were some nice quotes from it.

That change from "we didn't need no stupid doctors, we had eachother" to "prayers were free, but you needed medicine" and "love alone don't fix anything" was too real for a new couple coming out of that fresh baby honeymoon phase.

I'm glad they toned down a lot of the super powering for this issue. Will being a fall guy to a more powerful figure as a result of being one of many desperate for financial means and living on poverty line is such a human experience and it hit harder because Jason was isolated to deal with this.

Last quote " a damned prince of gotham"
Will is apparently a better fortune teller than we all thought.

[G-Potion]

Yooo late to thread but dang I enjoyed this issue and really thought there were some nice quotes from it.

That change from "we didn't need no stupid doctors, we had eachother" to "prayers were free, but you needed medicine" and "love alone don't fix anything" was too real for a new couple coming out of that fresh baby honeymoon phase.

I'm glad they toned down a lot of the super powering for this issue. Will being a fall guy to a more powerful figure as a result of being one of many desperate for financial means and living on poverty line is such a human experience and it hit harder because Jason was isolated to deal with this.

Last quote " a damned prince of gotham"
Will is apparently a better fortune teller than we all thought.

Imagine when they reunite. Willis be like, I didn't mean it literally.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

It`s plausible but just saying, where is the detail? That plotline for instance, one would assume his mother would still be alive by the time the new52 kicks in but we never see Jason talking about her as if she was. What happened? Did she end up dying afterwads anyhow? Wouldn`t Bruce look up for her? Did the Joker managed to get her again?

I get it, Loedbell went to Superman and Tynion changed things and he lost interest but as far as Rebirt goes we`re still with the same vagueness regarding the issue.

Seems pretty straighforward to me. Jason died without knowing he actually managed to save Katherine and thus he thinks she died. Katherine knows that Jaosn died but never knew he got resurrected so they completely lost any contact.

[Aioros22]

And amist all the conversations or confrontations he`s had about the subject with Bruce and Alfred, his mother still being out there just didn`t come over?

"Jay will you stop talking about your death! Go see your mother please. You saved her, have comfort in t--"

"My mother is alive??"

"Yeah, she was at your fun--"

"And nobody saw any interest in telling me??"

"--you know, business, Gotham never sleeps lol"

Seems far fetched to me and brings home the point. It`s not that the narrative can`t be doable, you just need to addreess it and it hasn`t.

[JasonTodd428]

And amist all the conversations or confrontations he`s had about the subject with Bruce and Alfred, his mother still being out there just didn`t come over?

"Jay will you stop talking about your death! Go see your mother please. You saved her, have comfort in t--"

"My mother is alive??"

"Yeah, she was at your fun--"

"And nobody saw any interest in telling me??"

"--you know, business, Gotham never sleeps lol"

Seems far fetched to me and brings home the point. It`s not that the narrative can`t be doable, you just need to addreess it and it hasn`t.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. It's never been addressed and so while the narrative works okay without it I think a bit of clarification would help to strengthen it more. To be honest with you I would have thought someone in the family would have said something to him IF Catherine was alive and well somewhere particularly since it was his not being aware of her being alive that lead directly to his death in this timeline. I know circumstances prevented him from being aware of that the first time but I would think that once Jason was interacting with the family again Bruce would have wanted Jason to know that little tidbit of information. It pretty important in my estimation because 1. then Jason is aware that she was saved and 2. because it would prevent Joker from attempting the same stunt with her and Jason again that led to his first death.

[Rise]

I'm little confused here. Catherine was supposed to be alive? I don't think it was possible for me to dislike 0 issue more than I already do and thank God the idea was dropped.