Red Hood & The Outlaws #23 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[magpieM]

Willis still has a family and if Lobdell's plans pan out, some members will show up eventually.

Did Lobdell actually tell you that? Is Willis' family still going to be a big one that might give Jason a dozen of cousins?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

No, it means that Joker was obsessed with both Batman and Jason regardless of what Joker's intentions were. Why the heck would Joker even bother with some random Crime Alley kid not even on the Bats radar (only Willis was on his radar not his family) when there are literally hundreds of other ways to get at the Bat including going after Robin/Dick Grayson. I really found the whole thing to be to full of random coincidences to make it plausible even under the "comic book logic" idea so that's why it doesn't work for me. Like I said it adds literally nothing and takes away to much that already was working. It's far more believable to me that Jason and Batman would cross paths in Crime Alley, while the former was jacking the tires from the Batmobile and that he would later get on Joker's radar by becoming Robin. Lobdell's idea here is utter nonsense and remains one of the few missteps I his work with the character IMO.

Again, when has the Joker being shown as being obsessed with Jason?

And what random coincidences? If anything, the idea of Jason being steered by the Joker does remove the random coincidences that were used previously. Like don't you remember the scene on UtRH where Winnick literally uses a bunch of random coincidences he made on the spot to explain how it was possible for Jason to steal the Batmobile's tires in the first place?

If you guys don't like the story, that's fair enough but please, stop trying to justify by pointing flaws that are also present on the stories you do like.

Not only it doesn't make sense, it makes Jason dangerously close to Donna Troy level of having multiple origins because of this pointless "unreliable narrator" angle which not only a waste of our time as a readers and a lazy plot device, but also complicate Jason's history unnecessary just because someone can't accept that the previous books being canon doesn't mean every detail is.

I'm not going to judge Lobdell over this just because Dark taking the role of him being his "unofficial spokesman" until I see what's Lobdell is planning with my own eyes. If he is going the route that Dark stubbornly convinced of, then I might consider dropping the book.

You're getting your stuff seriously confused here. There's no multiple origins, there's a single origin to which Lobdell is just adding more elements each time and he uses unreliable narrators to introduce those elements to let the readers decide what elements accept. Is similar to Zack Snyder's approach, they have their own stories plotted but they let the audience make their own interpretations of them.

And honestly I don't know why you say I'm being "so stubbornly convinced of" when the evidence is there on the book themeselves and it has been for years. Just to cite one example, the All Caste. People were convinced it wasn't canon anymore on rebirth and what happened? They get referenced on issue 11. And just like that, examples of Lobdell's approach of "everything is canon" are present through the three series.

Did Lobdell actually tell you that? Is Willis' family still going to be a big one that might give Jason a dozen of cousins?

I don't know how big it will be, but there's plans for members from Willis' side of the family to show up.

[G-Potion]

Oh it will.

Did you mean it will for the Willis part of the statement or both it and the Catherine part as well? If it turns out that Willis has some odd genes which passed down onto Jason, it's no surprise that Jason will seek out the rest of the family on his side. For the Catherine part, I don't like the idea for now, but let's see.

[Zaresh]

Let's just see what happens in the end and chill while waiting, guys. So far, the writing has been good and the story hasn't been unnecessary complex, and I'm thinking it will probably stay that way, with slow advances and subtle layering that helps sitting every piece in place.

Unless we get a sudden change in direction because editorial planning, events or new writer, one would expect to remain that way. Also, Lobdell could change whatever he has planned any given point in time because he has an afterthought or has thought of a better way to take some plot thread. Nothing is really settled into stone in medium term, I would say.

[Rise]

And what random coincidences? If anything, the idea of Jason being steered by the Joker does remove the random coincidences that were used previously. Like don't you remember the scene on UtRH where Winnick literally uses a bunch of random coincidences he made on the spot to explain how it was possible for Jason to steal the Batmobile's tires in the first place?

If you guys don't like the story, that's fair enough but please, stop trying to justify by pointing flaws that are also present on the stories you do like.



You're getting your stuff seriously confused here. There's no multiple origins, there's a single origin to which Lobdell is just adding more elements each time and he uses unreliable narrators to introduce those elements to let the readers decide what elements accept. Is similar to Zack Snyder's approach, they have their own stories plotted but they let the audience make their own interpretations of them.

And honestly I don't know why you say I'm being "so stubbornly convinced of" when the evidence is there on the book themeselves and it has been for years. Just to cite one example, the All Caste. People were convinced it wasn't canon anymore on rebirth and what happened? They get referenced on issue 11. And just like that, examples of Lobdell's approach of "everything is canon" are present through the three series.

It's funny how you can accept the joker being a mastermind behind Jason's life, but your suspense of belief break when it comes to Jason stealing the tires.

And I'm not being confused here. Zero issue and this issue contradict each other so you can't use "it's matter of perspective" excuse and if you are going to force both issues together in continuity, then you either end up making Jason a completely petty person who outright lying about things he doesn't know for no reason or say Willis is the one who is a liar here and you just wasted entire issue pointlessly.

And your use of "interpretation" is different from mine. I can interpret a writer's message or situation differently, but not the entire story because this mean there either something wrong with my understanding or the writing is simply bad.

[JasonTodd428]

Again, when has the Joker being shown as being obsessed with Jason?

And what random coincidences? If anything, the idea of Jason being steered by the Joker does remove the random coincidences that were used previously. Like don't you remember the scene on UtRH where Winnick literally uses a bunch of random coincidences he made on the spot to explain how it was possible for Jason to steal the Batmobile's tires in the first place?

If you guys don't like the story, that's fair enough but please, stop trying to justify by pointing flaws that are also present on the stories you do like.

He was certainly obsessed with Jason becoming Robin so that's the when. Also I never claimed that the other stories were without randomness or flaws. All I'm saying is that I found those particular instances to work better for me then Lobdell having had Joker controlling everything about Jason's life from the get go. It also doesn't remove any of the randomness those stories had. All of really does is add a different random event in its place. After all Joker and Willis just randomly cross paths at the same clinic and Jason also randomly happens to be with him that time.

[Rise]

Let's just see what happens in the end and chill while waiting, guys. So far, the writing has been good and the story hasn't been unnecessary complex, and I'm thinking it will probably stay that way, with slow advances and subtle layering that helps sitting every piece in place.

Unless we get a sudden change in direction because editorial planning, events or new writer, one would expect to remain that way. Also, Lobdell could change whatever he has planned any given point in time because he has an afterthought or has thought of a better way to take some plot thread. Nothing is really settled into stone in medium term, I would say.

I definitely agree that RHATO is a great book. It's the only rebirth book which I have read that has been consistently good from the beginning.

I just don't want Jason's backstory to be complicated for no reason just because of "everything should be canon" approach, but I'm still excited for what happened next and hoping for the best.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

It's funny how you can accept the joker being a mastermind behind Jason's life, but your suspense of belief break when it comes to Jason stealing the tires.

That wasn't me, that was Winnick.

And I'm not being confused here. Zero issue and this issue contradict each other so you can't use "it's matter of perspective" excuse and if you are going to force both issues together in continuity, then you either end up making Jason a completely petty person who outright lying about things he doesn't know for no reason or say Willis is the one who is a liar here and you just wasted entire issue pointlessly.

Is not petty when Jason has legitimate reasons to hate Willis and Willis himself is a criminal so it shouldn't be shocking to learn he could be lying. If anything there's a great level of attention to the detail from both Lobdell and Harsing to depict Willis narration, the first letter includes the scene of Catherine and Willis fighting while a child Jason hides under the table and as the narrative progresses, Willis narrative just improves, with no mention whatsoever of whatever faults he had.

He was certainly obsessed with Jason becoming Robin so that's the when. Also I never claimed that the other stories were without randomness or flaws. All I'm saying is that I found those particular instances to work better for me then Lobdell having had Joker controlling everything about Jason's life from the get go. It also doesn't remove any of the randomness those stories had. All of really does is add a different random event in its place. After all Joker and Willis just randomly cross paths at the same clinic and Jason also randomly happens to be with him that time.

That was him just following his plans to hurt Batman, that was why he didn't bothered to learn Jason's name. Is a single event against a long string of those, and even then, what's so random about a thug and Gotham's biggest criminal being at the same underground clinic at the same time? If anything it would've been weirder they didn't cross paths before. As for Jason being with Willis, who else could've carried him there?

I just don't want Jason's backstory to be complicated for no reason just because of "everything should be canon" approach, but I'm still excited for what happened next and hoping for the best.

This is disingenous considering how a lot of you were excited at the possiblity of Sheila being canon again.

[Rise]

What was the point of posting these pages? I know about them and still find it more believable and better than the joker controling Jason's life. It's still ironic how your suspense of belief break over this.

Yeah, because having Jason making up stuff about someone who he hate is a good look for him and definitely doesn't make him petty. Having a legitimate reasons to hate someone doesn't give you the right to lie about them or waste our time over false story just because you don't want it to be rectonned.

This is disingenous considering how a lot of you were excited at the possiblity of Sheila being canon again

Says the guy who think the joker faking Catherine's death and having her live in Ethiopia or Qurac or whatever all these years to fool Jason and then have her survive the explosion without anyone bothering to tell Jason about it is the better story and the less complicated option.

[Zaresh]

For what is worth, I would go with Sheila being someone who the Joker blackmails into becoming a decoy, pretending to be Catherine and luring Jason there. It would be credible to certain degree, a mix of both continuities, and a sad story that could also show Jason saving the woman that betrayed him, Bruce hiding information from him for his safety (because he suspects it's a plot from the Joker) and Joker doing it because he wanted to hurt Batman and get his atention.

I don't know, it could work.
Let's wait for the actual writer to lay and show his plot.

[EMarie]

I believe there are ways to mesh the two point of views especially if Willis is only focusing on explaining how he feels and not the negative things he did. Wills wanted Jason to know he cared about him not to bring up all his misdeeds. I can buy that. At this point it's moot because it's unclear if or how Lobdell will go forward with this plot. I can wait to see how it plays out.

I'm not a fan of Shelia but the only way for this Catherine plot to work is if Joker was behind it and I'm not a fan of that plot. Or the idea that Catherine had a fake death, survived the bombing, everyone lost contact with her and no one told Jason. Bruce maybe but Alfred and Dick?

I don't understand the confusion over the tires. Is Tim following the dynamic duo and figuring out their IDs more accepted than the tire theft? The whole point of the original story was that it was the anniversary of the Wayne's death and every year Batman patrolled the area. No one in Crime Alley dared step out of line. That was the norm for years and that Batman had a sense of overconfidence. That's why he laughed when he saw the missing tires, he never thought anyone would have the guts to do it. In such a situation he wouldn't take his usual precautions because he expected them all to be ruled by fear.

[RedBird]

For what is worth, I would go with Sheila being someone who the Joker blackmails into becoming a decoy, pretending to be Catherine and luring Jason there. It would be credible to certain degree, a mix of both continuities, and a sad story that could also show Jason saving the woman that betrayed him, Bruce hiding information from him for his safety (because he suspects it's a plot from the Joker) and Joker doing it because he wanted to hurt Batman and get his atention.

I don't know, it could work.
Let's wait for the actual writer to lay and show his plot.

Even though I'm definitely one of the fans who liked Sheila's involvement in the original storyline as Jasons birth mom and want her back in continuity, this is actually a pretty great alternative that would still fall in line with the new52/rebirth continuity of Catherine being Jasons bio mom and could fix a lot of this unreliable narrator, Joker ultimate plan nonsense.

It could help scrap the ridiculous Joker controlled Jasons whole life mess by doing away with his so called idea that Joker even knew about Jason before he was Robin, and plan of having his mother Catherine only 'appear dead' by a drug overdose. Instead this could work by having Joker only know of Jasons existence after he becomes Robin and becomes actually connected to Batman, which would make a TON of more sense, research about his prior life and only then create this plan to tempt Jason/Robin out of the nest by convincing him that his mother survived and that she is alive with Sheila as a decoy and a lackey that needs the Jokers help to cover for her misdeeds like in the original story. You're are right on the money with the fact that almost nothing would be lost in this equation. We still get a Jason desperate to find his mother, a betrayal from a practical stranger, Jason saving the woman that betrayed him to a last ditch effort to do 'the right thing', and Sheila being overwhelmed by the bravery of this kid who barely knew her and had been betrayed by her.

Honestly I reckon this could work, nice idea Zaresh.

[Zaresh]

Even though I'm definitely one of the fans who liked Sheila's involvement in the original storyline as Jasons birth mom and want her back in continuity, this is actually a pretty great alternative that would still fall in line with the new52/rebirth continuity of Catherine being Jasons bio mom and could fix a lot of this unreliable narrator, Joker ultimate plan nonsense.

It could help scrap the ridiculous Joker controlled Jasons whole life mess by doing away with his so called idea that Joker even knew about Jason before he was Robin, and plan of having his mother Catherine only 'appear dead' by a drug overdose. Instead this could work by having Joker only know of Jasons existence after he becomes Robin and becomes actually connected to Batman, which would make a TON of more sense, research about his prior life and only then create this plan to tempt Jason/Robin out of the nest by convincing him that his mother survived and that she is alive with Sheila as a decoy and a lackey that needs the Jokers help to cover for her misdeeds like in the original story. You're are right on the money with the fact that almost nothing would be lost in this equation. We still get a Jason desperate to find his mother, a betrayal from a practical stranger, Jason saving the woman that betrayed him to a last ditch effort to do 'the right thing', and Sheila being overwhelmed by the bravery of this kid who barely knew her and had been betrayed by her.

Honestly I reckon this could work, nice idea Zaresh.

Thank you! Sometimes being somehow creative has his highlights (honestly, this comes from me missremembering the zero issue story the other day and being corrected by someone else).

[Aahz]

Is Tim following the dynamic duo and figuring out their IDs more accepted than the tire theft?

Tim following the dynamic duo is mostly fan fic, that was never show like that in the comics, there you only see him shoot pictures of one fight between Batman and some villian ( and from what it looks like in broad Daylight) in the beginning of A Lonely Place of dying.

And what people also keep to forget is, that story was written before the "Batman is just a Urban Myth" thing. In the 80s Batman was appearing openly in Public.

[Rise]

I believe there are ways to mesh the two point of views especially if Willis is only focusing on explaining how he feels and not the negative things he did. Wills wanted Jason to know he cared about him not to bring up all his misdeeds. I can buy that. At this point it's moot because it's unclear if or how Lobdell will go forward with this plot. I can wait to see how it plays out.

It's not about having a different views, it's actually completely different story.

Jason believing there's no good in his father and that he doesn't love him is a different point of view. Him telling a complete false story about how his parents met, the circumstance of his brith and where his father was caught is lying.

Willis didn't suddnly become father of the year after this issue because he still failed in providing a safe environment for his son and securing his future. It's not like he pretended to be a good dad either and even admitted he made mistakes. The purpose of the letters was Willis wanting his son to not repeat his mistakes and for him to know that he loves him so I find it less likely that he is lying about the events in his letters.