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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    [ Agape and charity ]
    Thing is, conflicts can be of different types. There are arguably rather few superhero comics that revolve around inner conflicts. Batman mostly reacts to his villains, who are criminals. Superman classically averts disasters.

    But to me, Wonder Woman should stand in opposition to structural oppression. If we got back to Hiketeia, the conflict she has with Batman is partly because she has a fundamentally different view of justice than Batman has (even though the story could have explored that a lot further). Batman's justice is the justice of the rich man; Wonder Woman's justice is justice for the oppressed and poor.

    Looking at that list, I see something missing. That is Diana herself. All of them (except possibly the first) does not really touch Diana as a person or character—they relate more to the people and the world around her.

    I mentioned earlier that Diana had a tendency to become a bystander in her own stories, because of the way that too many gods have a tendency to become involved. But the same theme still holds here: the attempts to modernise (or change) Diana do not touch her as a character, and thus fundamentally fail in what they are trying to do.
    Hmmh... Her value is love, peace, empathy, compassion, feminism and truth. Superman used to be truth, justice and american way, but he's more universal now. Diana's values are already progressive, even in the 40s, I don't know how else can you modernize her.

    Actually, I see more instances where they have to make an effort to keep her from regressing. Like when she's depowered and made into a fashion designer, or when the artists decided to dress her in a thong and give her boob and butt pose, or that now he needs to be biologically related to a male.

    The change they did recently is officially making her bi, giving her a girlfriend, and/or confirming that Amazons do indeed love each other that way, but it's more about confirming what people already suspect.

  2. #17
    non-super & non-hero jump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    They did use controversial directions. Killing Maxwell Lord and defining her as the Trinity who kills. Azzarello's man-killing Amazons. Zeus is her father. Donna was a villain. The twin brother Jason. Superman Wonder Woman romance. God of War. So they did try, and they didn't worry about fans reaction as all of those happened without warning and two of them are still going. Sales were not bad too, so it's not sales that cause them to cancel the other decisions.

    Honestly I found Jill Thompson's True Amazon more controversial, changing the character from an almost perfect person to her having to earn redemption whilst banished because she was a spoilt brat is a bigger change.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    Honestly I found Jill Thompson's True Amazon more controversial, changing the character from an almost perfect person to her having to earn redemption whilst banished because she was a spoilt brat is a bigger change.
    I haven't read that one.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Hmmh... Her value is love, peace, empathy, compassion, feminism and truth. Superman used to be truth, justice and american way, but he's more universal now. Diana's values are already progressive, even in the 40s, I don't know how else can you modernize her.

    The change they did recently is officially making her bi, giving her a girlfriend, and/or confirming that Amazons do indeed love each other that way, but it's more about confirming what people already suspect.
    What I think should be done to modernise Wonder Woman isn't really in changing her values, it's examining how her values clashes with the modern world. There have been bits and pieces here and there, but we know a lot more about sociology and the subtle mechanisms of oppression now than they did in the 40s, and society has evolved too.

    I haven't been really following the recent Wonder Woman runs, but my impression is that her only in-continuity relations from Rebirth have been with Kasia (on Themyscira) and Steve Trevor, and the Kasia relation could be read as very close friendship (even if I read them as lovers). The in-continuity title is still not really there in exploring a bisexual (or pansexual) Diana.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I don't know if she's hard to write more than writers find it easier to write extreme personalities. Batman the broody and Superman the righteous are easier to pin down than Wonder Woman the balanced peacekeeper. She doesn't have a lot of inner conflict and her role as a peacekeeper means most conflict will not be about her, unlike Batman who has a lot of dark mirror villains with personal history with him, which makes their story his story as well.
    This is kind of what I was thinking.

    It's hard to write such a forceful personality as Wonder Woman for some writers because it's easier to slide into her more aggressive side and just have her preach a bit. They're probably also worried that they're going to go too far in any direction, so they just often go the easiest route.

  6. #21
    non-super & non-hero jump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I haven't read that one.
    I'd recommend giving it a read, it won an Eisner.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Its trying to find that balance of compassion + warrior + confidence - seeming to be arrogant warlord that gives people issues trying to find that perfect balance.

    And lets not touch on fanfics, most of which either have her as little more than a love interest or as just the warrior (be it from Injustice, New52, or other less then flattering origins for her) with too much pride.

  8. #23
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Its trying to find that balance of compassion + warrior + confidence - seeming to be arrogant warlord that gives people issues trying to find that perfect balance.

    And lets not touch on fanfics, most of which either have her as little more than a love interest or as just the warrior (be it from Injustice, New52, or other less then flattering origins for her) with too much pride.
    Well despite fumbling Christopher Priest did well with her at least in terms of personality.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  9. #24
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    And lets not touch on fanfics, most of which either have her as little more than a love interest or as just the warrior (be it from Injustice, New52, or other less then flattering origins for her) with too much pride.
    When it comes to fanfics, my experience is that it comes down much more to the specific author than it does on the fandom or characters. Sure, some fandoms and characters tend to have better fics, but I deem that to be because they've attracted good authors, not because they happen to be easier to write. And my impression is that good authors in fanfic circles tends to attract other good authors to the same fandom.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    They did use controversial directions. Killing Maxwell Lord and defining her as the Trinity who kills. Azzarello's man-killing Amazons. Zeus is her father. Donna was a villain. The twin brother Jason. Superman Wonder Woman romance. God of War. So they did try, and they didn't worry about fans reaction as all of those happened without warning and two of them are still going. Sales were not bad too, so it's not sales that cause them to cancel the other decisions.
    Well I was citing some of those those kinds of things as pushing the bounds. Especially the man killing amazon stuff. I remember being passingly interested in those ideas but they didn’t hang around very long and I wasn’t a fan of the art. Whereas Golden Age WW has the whole puncturing the pomp of man which is still fascinating. Surely we are in an age where a mainstream hero that punctures masculinity in a challenging manner would work again? But as I say I have no idea if that is happening as I have not read modern WW at all.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 06-08-2018 at 10:25 AM.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    I felt the same way. I remember Morrison talking on a podcast before it was released about how the idea is it's a trial which is gonna be used for meta writing about how she's the face of feminism/women as well as her character overall, which is what the trial is really about but I don't think they did enough with stuff.
    Totally agree. He talked the talk. I really did wonder if the editors toned him down given how long it took to actually arrive. Put it this way, it wasn’t because the colourist took too long given how totally uninspired I was with an otherwise excellent artist.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    To confess. I actually ended up in this discussion because my thumb hit the wrong thing on my phone. I feel like I am walking on egg-shells having only read Golden Age WW, the afore mentioned history book and Morrison’s book, and flicking through a few recent books with mild interest (including being totally baffled by the Rebirth issue). I watched the TV show when I was a kid, but at the time I tried to pretend I wasn’t watching because it was a girls TV show. I watched the movie and was mildly offended by the treatment of the Great War which was certainly not a good v evil fight.

    So I really don’t want to offend anyone and yet I really want to know why anyone would read Wonder Woman today? What does the book bring to the table? As a Thor fan everyone always tells me I should read WW but nothing has inspired me to do so because everything I look at seems like it’s pulling its punches compared to those radical early years. What am I missing? Is it the writing or is it just the zeitgeist?

  13. #28
    Incredible Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    To confess. I actually ended up in this discussion because my thumb hit the wrong thing on my phone. I feel like I am walking on egg-shells having only read Golden Age WW, the afore mentioned history book and Morrison’s book, and flicking through a few recent books with mild interest (including being totally baffled by the Rebirth issue). I watched the TV show when I was a kid, but at the time I tried to pretend I wasn’t watching because it was a girls TV show. I watched the movie and was mildly offended by the treatment of the Great War which was certainly not a good v evil fight.

    So I really don’t want to offend anyone and yet I really want to know why anyone would read Wonder Woman today? What does the book bring to the table? As a Thor fan everyone always tells me I should read WW but nothing has inspired me to do so because everything I look at seems like it’s pulling its punches compared to those radical early years. What am I missing? Is it the writing or is it just the zeitgeist?
    Heh. To me you've tried to articulate exactly what you like and dislike about the Wonder Woman depictions, and that goes a long way. And yes, I read the opening Rebirth issues and was confused myself; it's structurally rather complex, and tries to tie in about five different earlier backgrounds, and I'm far from sure it managed to execute well enough.

    Personally, I thought the movie handled the Great War well; not perfect, but at least with respect. And it had a couple of moments where it humanised the common German soldiery. I wish it had done more of that, but at least it more than once criticised the actions of the Entente.

    But yes, I agree that most Wonder Woman stories I've read have been pulling their punches in handling social issues, but it's not really what I primarily expect from the character. I hope some more well-read people here can give you some pointers.

  14. #29
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    Honestly I found Jill Thompson's True Amazon more controversial, changing the character from an almost perfect person to her having to earn redemption whilst banished because she was a spoilt brat is a bigger change.
    Honestly, the more time that goes on, the more I think that book was actually pretty good and not just good because I liked seeing Wonder Woman inadvertently killing and maiming lots of people. A lot of the character traits present there I would like to see introduced in the mainstream book, like her being a bit narcissistic and overtly competitive.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 06-08-2018 at 12:26 PM.
    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

    How come these anonymous sources failed to report Zack Snyder had left post-production on Justice League? They seem to know everything now...

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing that causes her to be hard to write is because there are not editors. I mean there is no permanent origins.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

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