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  1. #31
    Lv 67 Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    To confess. I actually ended up in this discussion because my thumb hit the wrong thing on my phone. I feel like I am walking on egg-shells having only read Golden Age WW, the afore mentioned history book and Morrison’s book, and flicking through a few recent books with mild interest (including being totally baffled by the Rebirth issue). I watched the TV show when I was a kid, but at the time I tried to pretend I wasn’t watching because it was a girls TV show. I watched the movie and was mildly offended by the treatment of the Great War which was certainly not a good v evil fight.
    I don't really get this narrative that the Wonder Woman film somehow demeans history. Its pretty clear that the bad guys are a rogue element within the German army and are not representative of Germany as a whole. Not to mention the real bad guy is disguised as an Anglo. Even then, this idea that WWI was somehow a screw up that the European powers bumbled into is false. Germany invaded and occupied Belgium, a nation Germany had signed a neutrality treaty, along with an assault against France. They were clearly the aggressors. This idea that Germany was somehow an innocent actor in the war is just crazy and, let's be honest, was used to justify renewed aggression against France. The Treaty of Versailles is often seen as punitive, but, it was a logical demand on the account of France whose infrastructure was decimated.

    Also, as for this good v evil fight narrative for WW2, its a comforting thought, but the 'good' guys in this fight were imperialist, apartheid empires that had committed acts of genocide in their living memory. This is a fact brought up in the Wonder Woman film too.

    So I really don’t want to offend anyone and yet I really want to know why anyone would read Wonder Woman today? What does the book bring to the table? As a Thor fan everyone always tells me I should read WW but nothing has inspired me to do so because everything I look at seems like it’s pulling its punches compared to those radical early years. What am I missing? Is it the writing or is it just the zeitgeist?
    If you've read Jason Aaron's Thor work, then you would probably like Brian Azzarello's New 52 run. Obviously Marston's original work is still the best, but its also the greatest comic in human history, so, yeah, most of the runs that follow it aren't going to reach the same lofty height.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 06-08-2018 at 12:51 PM.
    Also visit my blog where I expose Wonder Woman for the criminal she is!

    How come these anonymous sources failed to report Zack Snyder had left post-production on Justice League? They seem to know everything now...

  2. #32
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    One thing that causes her to be hard to write is because there are not editors. I mean there is no permanent origins.
    There's also her character which is hard to balance.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    There's also her character which is hard to balance.
    Yea make her too violent generally. It should be 50/50.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  4. #34
    Lone Angel Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    There's also her character which is hard to balance.
    That could also go to substantiate AmiMizuno's point. Superman and Batman have always had strong editorial and corporate presence to guide the direction of their respective characters. I think that WW has not had that level of editorial support and guidance since Karen Berger (Sp) back in the 80s. Brian's take on WW grew on me and I liked some of the things he did with the character. However, while the new 52 versions of Superman and Batman along with their respective supporting casts and histories retained a level of familiarity, Wonder Woman's all changed and we had a new host of characters, which while instantly enjoyable, did not strike me as having any real longevity.

    As for the original question of the post... WW is no harder to write than any other character. Like any of her counterparts, she just needs a creative team that wants to tell her stories and have a true appreciation for all the character has been through over the 75+ years! I think what was done with Batman and Green Lantern could readily be applied to WW, where Morrison and Johns took the old tropes and various stories of past incarnations of each character and made them canonical histories [albeit tweaked for the modern age] that added to the overall modern interpretation of Batman and Green Lantern, respectively. I believe it can be done with Wonder Woman [and I am playing around with the outline to prove it]! Imagine all those WW Rogues sitting around waiting for a new modern outing and what better time than the present for WW's message of peace, love, understanding and compassion! We just need a truly gifted creator(s) who wants to take on the Wonder Woman and have DC Entertainment be supportive of such a vision as they did back in the 80s after Crisis on Infinite Earths!

    Regards,
    Lone Angel Chris
    "Still waiting for that twist ending..."

  5. #35
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea make her too violent generally. It should be 50/50.
    There are just so many contradictions that it tends to make little sense on how to write her sometimes. So these runs where the writer fumbles ought to be expected though DC and Marvel probably need a better screening process to pick the right writer for their characters.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneAngel74 View Post
    That could also go to substantiate AmiMizuno's point. Superman and Batman have always had strong editorial and corporate presence to guide the direction of their respective characters. I think that WW has not had that level of editorial support and guidance since Karen Berger (Sp) back in the 80s. Brian's take on WW grew on me and I liked some of the things he did with the character. However, while the new 52 versions of Superman and Batman along with their respective supporting casts and histories retained a level of familiarity, Wonder Woman's all changed and we had a new host of characters, which while instantly enjoyable, did not strike me as having any real longevity.

    As for the original question of the post... WW is no harder to write than any other character. Like any of her counterparts, she just needs a creative team that wants to tell her stories and have a true appreciation for all the character has been through over the 75+ years! I think what was done with Batman and Green Lantern could readily be applied to WW, where Morrison and Johns took the old tropes and various stories of past incarnations of each character and made them canonical histories [albeit tweaked for the modern age] that added to the overall modern interpretation of Batman and Green Lantern, respectively. I believe it can be done with Wonder Woman [and I am playing around with the outline to prove it]! Imagine all those WW Rogues sitting around waiting for a new modern outing and what better time than the present for WW's message of peace, love, understanding and compassion! We just need a truly gifted creator(s) who wants to take on the Wonder Woman and have DC Entertainment be supportive of such a vision as they did back in the 80s after Crisis on Infinite Earths!

    Regards,
    Lone Angel Chris
    "Still waiting for that twist ending..."
    Yea. I mean DC will not give her an editor because she only has one book. It would be great if they actually are great if they brought back sensation comics. I mean I heard their new version did great. So why not at least give her one new book and a new editor. However, you need an editor who knows Diana but also doesn't mind if people did something new. You need to make sure the basics are the same but give them room to expand on
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  7. #37
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneAngel74 View Post
    That could also go to substantiate AmiMizuno's point. Superman and Batman have always had strong editorial and corporate presence to guide the direction of their respective characters. I think that WW has not had that level of editorial support and guidance since Karen Berger (Sp) back in the 80s. Brian's take on WW grew on me and I liked some of the things he did with the character. However, while the new 52 versions of Superman and Batman along with their respective supporting casts and histories retained a level of familiarity, Wonder Woman's all changed and we had a new host of characters, which while instantly enjoyable, did not strike me as having any real longevity.

    As for the original question of the post... WW is no harder to write than any other character. Like any of her counterparts, she just needs a creative team that wants to tell her stories and have a true appreciation for all the character has been through over the 75+ years! I think what was done with Batman and Green Lantern could readily be applied to WW, where Morrison and Johns took the old tropes and various stories of past incarnations of each character and made them canonical histories [albeit tweaked for the modern age] that added to the overall modern interpretation of Batman and Green Lantern, respectively. I believe it can be done with Wonder Woman [and I am playing around with the outline to prove it]! Imagine all those WW Rogues sitting around waiting for a new modern outing and what better time than the present for WW's message of peace, love, understanding and compassion! We just need a truly gifted creator(s) who wants to take on the Wonder Woman and have DC Entertainment be supportive of such a vision as they did back in the 80s after Crisis on Infinite Earths!

    Regards,
    Lone Angel Chris
    "Still waiting for that twist ending..."
    I see your point and technically some of Wonder Woman's rogues have been updated and also it depends on the type of enthusiasm. With Batman we had the Batgod previously the Batjerk and with Green Lantern we keep getting Hal Jordan being touted as the Greatest Green Lantern Ever being slapped on to him. It's not always been good for them as these things annoy fans. Well like I said maybe Marvel and DC need a better screening process when they pick writers for their characters or at least a course that teaches them how to.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Well I was citing some of those those kinds of things as pushing the bounds. Especially the man killing amazon stuff. I remember being passingly interested in those ideas but they didnít hang around very long and I wasnít a fan of the art. Whereas Golden Age WW has the whole puncturing the pomp of man which is still fascinating. Surely we are in an age where a mainstream hero that punctures masculinity in a challenging manner would work again? But as I say I have no idea if that is happening as I have not read modern WW at all.
    It should work, but right now they prefer to build up her twin brother.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    To confess. I actually ended up in this discussion because my thumb hit the wrong thing on my phone. I feel like I am walking on egg-shells having only read Golden Age WW, the afore mentioned history book and Morrisonís book, and flicking through a few recent books with mild interest (including being totally baffled by the Rebirth issue). I watched the TV show when I was a kid, but at the time I tried to pretend I wasnít watching because it was a girls TV show. I watched the movie and was mildly offended by the treatment of the Great War which was certainly not a good v evil fight.

    So I really donít want to offend anyone and yet I really want to know why anyone would read Wonder Woman today? What does the book bring to the table? As a Thor fan everyone always tells me I should read WW but nothing has inspired me to do so because everything I look at seems like itís pulling its punches compared to those radical early years. What am I missing? Is it the writing or is it just the zeitgeist?
    Ey yo, it's fine. Having a more casual point of view will reveal what's needed in a Wonder Woman comic.

    I like it because I like Greek mythology, which sometimes connect with DC's original myth and other myth, like at the moment Diana's tackling Celtic myth with Batman. I also love Diana's personality and values. It also has the rare gender flip love interest in distress, and a cast of women who are either implied or definitely LBQ. So the appeal is myth enthusiast, feminist, and LGBTQ fans.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Despite having so many different fans what are the most important things that should be kept the same? What should be expanded upon?
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://www.change.org/p/comic-fans-...part-2-back-on

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I want her to tackle modern feminism, because when I first learn about it, I got different interpretations, and even now, there are people who havedifferent definitions. Then with social media, young people also get confused by what they're supposed to do as a feminist, because it people can't agree on it.

    To be specific, there are people who say feminism is about equality, but because the main problem is in womanhood they prioritize female cases. Then there are people who say that equality means they need to tackle male problem too. Then there's misandrist who claim to be feminist, mysoginist claiming to fight for men's rights, feminist who ignores black women's problem, and feminist who ignores trans women problems.

    So I want Wonder Woman to address this and define it sp she can be that inspirational figure again.

    I just don't trust anyone at DC not to screw this up with their lack of subtlety

  12. #42
    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    I have strong feelings about this, but I'll try keep it short:

    Wonder Woman should not be hard to write, but they focus on the wrong things (like continuity, what WW should be etc.) and forget the important ones (the stories). That has to deal with the lack of an editorial team, as Ami pointed out, and it makes her a mess to deal with.

    Why was Azzarello's run so influential? He had a clean canvas because of the new 52 and wrote a strong narrative. He had a clear vision for Wonder Woman and for the story he wanted to tell.

    Jill Thompson did as well. She won an Eisner for that.

    And they're all similar cause none of them are at the same time in-continuity stories and "true" Wonder Woman depictions (depictions of the compassionate, empathetic, but still brave amazon princess. This wonderful character that was constructed so irregularly through her publication history).

    Rucka's Rebith is fantastic and I'll always defend it (seriously, guys, Godwatch!!!). But the story and the reimaginations are not as strong as Azzarello's cause he had all of those continuity problems to solve. Two of the four arcs, The Truth and The Lies, were basicaly to deal with her origin and status. The fabulous reinventions of the Cheetah, Circe and Veronica are so sidelined cause they were there first and foremost as a glue to stick the inconsistent pieces of Diana's past. Their feminist angle, for example, which was mentioned by you as a core theme, is forgotten. Just an example.

    TLDR: We rarely get Wonder Woman stories because they have a great story to tell. We get them because they need to solve her origin question. They need to solve Jason. They need to solve her. And this fixing is what is causing problems in the first place.

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I want her to tackle modern feminism, because when I first learn about it, I got different interpretations, and even now, there are people who havedifferent definitions. Then with social media, young people also get confused by what they're supposed to do as a feminist, because it people can't agree on it.

    To be specific, there are people who say feminism is about equality, but because the main problem is in womanhood they prioritize female cases. Then there are people who say that equality means they need to tackle male problem too. Then there's misandrist who claim to be feminist, mysoginist claiming to fight for men's rights, feminist who ignores black women's problem, and feminist who ignores trans women problems.

    So I want Wonder Woman to address this and define it sp she can be that inspirational figure again.

    I just don't trust anyone at DC not to screw this up with their lack of subtlety
    I read your entire coment thinking exactly what you said in the last line.

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member Joao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ey yo, it's fine. Having a more casual point of view will reveal what's needed in a Wonder Woman comic.

    I like it because I like Greek mythology, which sometimes connect with DC's original myth and other myth, like at the moment Diana's tackling Celtic myth with Batman. I also love Diana's personality and values. It also has the rare gender flip love interest in distress, and a cast of women who are either implied or definitely LBQ. So the appeal is myth enthusiast, feminist, and LGBTQ fans.
    Pretty much that. I study Greek mythology and there are some good uses of it in her comics. And I'm also a member of the LGBTQ+ community and a man who doesn't relate to traditional ideals of masculinity, so seeing a woman who is a superhero and has different values than most of her male counterparts is refreshing for me.

    Maybe I'm inclined to like her stories more than most people are.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I don't really get this narrative that the Wonder Woman film somehow demeans history.
    Well my argument is nothing so strong as to suggest history is being demeaned. I am somewhat uncomfortable watching a superhero helping a push across no-man’s land to kill German soldiers. The complex history that surrounds the Great War is not possible to simplify by looking at who invaded who or even deciding who was right or wrong. There are huge arguments about whether many of the countries that got involved should have, and whether there was any side that was definable as the right one. Then there is a major question of strategic incompetence on all sides given that Europeans refused to take any strategic lessons from the recent conflicts in America leading to an unprecedented carnage.

    Now, as WW is clearly not a pro-war film, it has a fine line to walk. It does some things well, such as suggesting a natural place for the villain to be hiding (ie we were not necessarily good guys), and it tries to suggest finishing the war is far more important than fighting it. However the standout fighting moment would suggest there is a side which it is OK to fight alongside, and that is historically problematic, and not really reflected upon.

    You will note I have taken great pains not to suggest anyone was on the wrong side, or shouldn’t have been there, and avoided most of the controversial elements of said Great War. WW didn’t quite manage to do this, and left me feeling a little conflicted.

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