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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Minerboh's Avatar
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    Default Was The New 52 an Altered Pre-Flashpoint DC U Or Not?

    It has been several years since Flashpoint and the rise of the New 52 U and it still bothers me what on earth was the New 52 in the first place.
    Was it an altered Pre-Flashpoint Universe or a completely separated timeline/Universe?
    There are some points that indicate that the N52 U was simply Pre Flashpoint U reconstituted such as that infamous splash page in Flashpoint #5 which clearly depicts the Pre Flashpoint heroes transforming, Wally West re emerging and Bary hinting that they were acquinted before in another timeline and Green Latern re assuming after the Flashpoint from the events that took place right before.
    Then there is that whole mess with Superman. Pre Flashpoint Superman reappearing and taking N52 Superman's place indicating that N52 and Pre Flashpoint U are two seperated Universes.
    So... What was the deal with N52 anyway?

  2. #2
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    Rebirth has been billing it, for the most part, as an altered Pre-Flashpoint universe, yes. Its a different timeline, but the same universe. That make sense?
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  3. #3
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    The end of Flashpoint indicates that Pandora altered Pre-Flashpoint by combining three timelines to strengthen it against some threat. Phantom Stranger was shown to be aware of this in one of the Trinity of Sin series.

    But then Convergence and Justice League (N52) #40 indicated that Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 are essentially different universes. And that the former basically died or ended, giving way to the new one. Kinda like in Marvel with the 6th universe (where Galactus is originally from) dying in the Big Crunch and the 7th being formed by the Big Bang. Hence why we had separate Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 Booster Golds, the whole Convergence event, and Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois as separate people and refugees in the New 52.

    DC Universe: Rebirth #1 switches it and indicates again though that the New 52 timeline is the Pre-Flashpoint timeline edited or altered, this time by Doctor Manhattan (who is explained to have manipulated Pandora).

    Superman: Reborn combining the two Supermen/timelines and explaining that they were originally split and retconning Jon into DCU history + the renewed use of the concept of Hypertime in Rebirth confuse things further. Not to mention the kinda convoluted way they explained Wally. He was originally in the New 52, but got wiped from memory by Abra Kadabra and got trapped in the Speedforce, and THEN got memories of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline and saw Doctor Manhattan's edits. A lot of confused nonsense lol.

    So basically... idk lol. The overall attitude DC's taking across Rebirth, Flash, etc NOW is that the New 52 timeline is an altered Pre-Flashpoint DCU. So Convergence is likely non-canon and you should ignore any hints to the contrary in the past. It's clear that DC didn't have an overarching plan stretching from New 52 -> Convergence -> Rebirth (makes sense, why would they if they assumed that the New 52 would be sustainable?) and changed their minds along the way. So best to just go with what they say is the case now.
    Last edited by nickytesla96; 06-09-2018 at 09:22 AM.
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  4. #4
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    I would say about to the same degree that the Post-COIE (Pre-FLASHPOINT) DCU was the five remaining Pre-COIE parallel universes (Earth-One, Earth-Two, Earth-4, Earth-S, and Earth-X).

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  5. #5
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    It’s really confusing. Rebirth aimed to show that it was the original timeline altered with years taken away. However, there are a lot of circumstances that would make that make less sense, like anything that changed before the time period that Barry changed or race changes, different origins, and stuff.
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  6. #6
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    Even Convergence doesn't actually really contradict the current stance, if you really think about it. The bottled cities were taken from 'dead timelines'. Pre Flashpoint was technically a dead timeline (having been replaced by Flashpoint, and then the New 52). So its consistent with Pre Flashpoint becoming the New 52 (and then Rebirth).

    The problem arises because we're dealing with alternate timelines AND parallel earths - two different concepts in the DCU which sometimes overlap. And DC hasn't done a great job dealing with that ambiguity. In fact, writers often exploit it.

    Pre-Flashpoint Superman wasn't from a parallel universe. He was technically the New 52 Superman from a previous timeline. Its like if, in the Back to the Future universe, Marty traveled to 1983 and met a younger version of himself who grew up with a successful family. Both Marty's are from the same universe, but they are from different timelines. Of course, the way the stories themselves are written, alternate timeline versions are pretty much the same as parallel universe versions. It really is a matter of semantics to an extent. But there is a technical difference, and that plays into Superman Reborn.

    The two Supermen fusing and history (his, and the entire DCU's) altering makes perfect sense given that the two Supermen were alternate timeline variants of each other. What IS confusing though is the new backstory behind it. Apparently, Doc Manhattan (or someone) split Superman into two at some point to weaken him. But that's not what we saw. We KNOW how and why there are two Supermen. Superman wasn't 'split' into two - his timeline was altered by Flashpoint (and Manhattan), and a pre-altered version of him was 'rescued' from erasure by Brainiac and survived with his family. And you can't say Convergence is 'no longer canon'. In a meta sense, beyond the scope of the current DC Rebirth timeline, ALL the universe-altering, timeline-altering events happened!

  7. #7
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    They change based on their plan and fans reaction to it. When it's not received well, they change it.

  8. #8
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    They change based on their plan and fans reaction to it. When it's not received well, they change it.
    Exactly. Had Convergence been good, it would have an impact, but since nobody liked it, forgotten

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Exactly. Had Convergence been good, it would have an impact, but since nobody liked it, forgotten
    I rather liked CONVERGENCE myself; I wish DC had taken greater advantage of what they were setting up there.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Even Convergence doesn't actually really contradict the current stance, if you really think about it. The bottled cities were taken from 'dead timelines'. Pre Flashpoint was technically a dead timeline (having been replaced by Flashpoint, and then the New 52). So its consistent with Pre Flashpoint becoming the New 52 (and then Rebirth).

    The problem arises because we're dealing with alternate timelines AND parallel earths - two different concepts in the DCU which sometimes overlap. And DC hasn't done a great job dealing with that ambiguity. In fact, writers often exploit it.

    Pre-Flashpoint Superman wasn't from a parallel universe. He was technically the New 52 Superman from a previous timeline. Its like if, in the Back to the Future universe, Marty traveled to 1983 and met a younger version of himself who grew up with a successful family. Both Marty's are from the same universe, but they are from different timelines. Of course, the way the stories themselves are written, alternate timeline versions are pretty much the same as parallel universe versions. It really is a matter of semantics to an extent. But there is a technical difference, and that plays into Superman Reborn.

    The two Supermen fusing and history (his, and the entire DCU's) altering makes perfect sense given that the two Supermen were alternate timeline variants of each other. What IS confusing though is the new backstory behind it. Apparently, Doc Manhattan (or someone) split Superman into two at some point to weaken him. But that's not what we saw. We KNOW how and why there are two Supermen. Superman wasn't 'split' into two - his timeline was altered by Flashpoint (and Manhattan), and a pre-altered version of him was 'rescued' from erasure by Brainiac and survived with his family. And you can't say Convergence is 'no longer canon'. In a meta sense, beyond the scope of the current DC Rebirth timeline, ALL the universe-altering, timeline-altering events happened!
    Interesting points. Thanks for the response!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    It’s really confusing. Rebirth aimed to show that it was the original timeline altered with years taken away. However, there are a lot of circumstances that would make that make less sense, like anything that changed before the time period that Barry changed or race changes, different origins, and stuff.
    In Flashpoint, Thawne said that Barry was like "a bullet through a glass". Barry saving his mother wasn't the origin of Flashpoint; it was he running through the time stream and shattered history-the timeline. Years after that, Wally said that at the end, Barry was actually correctly fixing the timeline, but that was the moment when Dr Manhattan altered the timeline. It is not like he took away the period of 1995-2005, he took away time of the entire history of the universe, and that was how the new52 timeline was created.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In my head, yes it was an altered version of what this Earth truly is, and that's the pre-Flashpoint history. Now, what I also like to believe is that, using the logic of Hypertime mixed with the Multiverse, that the unnatural changes to Earth-0, what was the New 52 era, resembles very much another reality out there. Since the possibilities and branching off of history are endless, it would stand to reason that out there, somewhere, is a reality where its natural course of time resulted in something similar, and in that sense "more real". In the fact that its a natural reality, not one tampered with to get like that.


    That's always been my personal pitch on how to reveal a new Earth-1 and thus a side-line where popular New 52 ideas can flourish and be done better this time around.
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  13. #13
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    To throw yet another wrench into all of this, the ramifications of Convergence are astounding: the infinite Multiverse, destroyed in COIE and then briefly restored in IC, has been again restored (or saved) because of Hallalax, pre-Flashpoint Superman, and Earth-One Barry and Kara. There's now a "Multi-Multiverse," (referenced in Metal and No Justice) that was the brainchild of Grant Morrison. It was also his idea that Brainiac had moved on from bottling cities to timelines. He considers the Multi-Multiverse to be like bubbles in a champagne glass, with each bubble one of infinite Orreries containing (presumably) 52 Earths.

    This means that somewhere in this "glass," there's an Orrery that contains the pre-Crisis Earths in their original form. Otherwise, their salvation at the end of Convergence would have ramifications for New Earth/Earth-Zero. For all we know, it's impossible to travel from one orrery to another, though perhaps not for a being like Manhattan.

    I'd love to see DC acknowledge, even in a one-shot, that the pre-COIE Earths are still out there and have evolved in the years since COIE was prevented.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
    To throw yet another wrench into all of this, the ramifications of Convergence are astounding: the infinite Multiverse, destroyed in COIE and then briefly restored in IC, has been again restored (or saved) because of Hallalax, pre-Flashpoint Superman, and Earth-One Barry and Kara. There's now a "Multi-Multiverse," (referenced in Metal and No Justice) that was the brainchild of Grant Morrison. It was also his idea that Brainiac had moved on from bottling cities to timelines. He considers the Multi-Multiverse to be like bubbles in a champagne glass, with each bubble one of infinite Orreries containing (presumably) 52 Earths.

    This means that somewhere in this "glass," there's an Orrery that contains the pre-Crisis Earths in their original form. Otherwise, their salvation at the end of Convergence would have ramifications for New Earth/Earth-Zero. For all we know, it's impossible to travel from one orrery to another, though perhaps not for a being like Manhattan.

    I'd love to see DC acknowledge, even in a one-shot, that the pre-COIE Earths are still out there and have evolved in the years since COIE was prevented.
    Yes.

    In fact, an evolved Pre COIE Earth One would be a fascinating place to explore.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Yes.

    In fact, an evolved Pre COIE Earth One would be a fascinating place to explore.
    Any of the timelines explored beyond the point where they were cut off in terms of publication would be fascinating. Flashpoint and New 52 certainly left a number of dangling storylines unresolved, and charting the natural evolution of these timelines would be a way of exercising nostalgia while allowing the current books to look ahead. Flashpoint has a short expiration date, but plenty of others have loads of potential.

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