King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[Korath]

I leave on vacation for a week and come back to two back to back issues of Batman waiting for me. Awesome!

They were so different in tone from each other. Overall, they showed me that Batman was not broken after all by the loss of Catwoman. A little bent, yes, but not broken. It was important to establish that before he was actually re-united with her. Moving on to #75, him going to meet her means that he sees her role as vital to ultimately getting the victory over Bane.

Very excited about what is to come. Some of King's best stories have involved team-ups between Cat and Bat.

Josh McDonald obviously needs to take up another hobby, and not reading books he doesn't like.

I don't see why his opinion would be less valid than the King-fawners. I share 100%, but can't express it as eloquentely.

[millernumber1]

That's because King doesn't build the story to explain why we are here. We just have to accept that what happened happened, but we never see it.

If you have things that you think aren't explained, I'm sure we can find an explanation. If you aren't enjoying the run, you likely won't accept the explanation, but that's not the same as saying it's not here.

As for Batman-News - I used to comment on their reviews, and while they have some good writers (and I like Joshua quite a bit), they really embrace the "bitter complaining fan" ethos, to the exclusion of trying to find ways to enjoy a comic, or trying to see things from the perspective of fans who might enjoy it.

"We don't see Bane using Psycho Pirate" - um. That's the whole point of the Two-Face plotline. Do you want King to actually show every villain getting their session?

"We don't see Bane slowly turn the tides against Batman" - what the actual heck? That was the entire point of Cold Days, The Tyrant Wing, and The Fall and the Fallen - showing Batman being gaslit, isolating himself, turning Gordon against him, then being broken in Knightmares and the fight in the Manor.

How did Bane take over? That is a question that might be worthwhile...but do we really need to see Bane bribing or brainwashing Arkham, then key individuals in the government?

How did the GCPD fall? That's a really good question - and I'm hoping that we'll get pieces of that, since Gordon is a very important character in King's run.

Where are the other heroes - Bane gave them an ultimatum that he would kill Alfred if they operated openly.

Why isn't the JL here? That was the entire point of I Am Gotham - Gotham soloed the whole league, and now his sister is working for Bane.

Gotham Girl is too chatty? Did you read Batman #6? That's just the way she talks. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it's not out of character.

"A nobody cut's Batman's throat" - after he's been brainwashed for weeks, back broken and repaired, been dragged through the desert fighting every night, fallen down a pit, fought some more, climbed out of the pit, and then climbed a mountain. Yes, Batman did beat KGBeast after walking 300 kilometers or something in the icy cold, so King's being a bit inconsistent, but I don't find it implausible at all that Batman is at his lowest point and gets his throat cut.

"I hate the boat/street argument" - well, that's a you problem. The fact that King is actually tying the issue to the Memory of the Mountain from the Annual #2 shows that it's important and part of the overall design, not just a throwaway line or repeated banter.

Most of the quoted review is just "I don't like it" repeated over and over.

And you don't have to like it.

But this is an enjoyment thread.

[lilyrose]

I just now realized that the Memory of the Mountain is part of the second annual. Does that mean that really is King's future for Bruce and Selina and they actually will marry by the end of his run?

[Scott Taylor]

Most of the quoted review is just "I don't like it" repeated over and over.

That was my read on it, too. 5,000 words to say four.

[Inversed]

While I have agreed that I do think Bane being responsible for pretty much everything in the run was a little underwhelming, and even the explanation issue didn't exactly make things clear how much control he had pre-wedding, it didn't ruin my overall enjoyment of the run and those previous stories still work whether you take that information or not.

As for having Gotham suddenly taken over without any real build up, I don't mind it, at least at the moment, because it makes it different from something like No Man's Land, being thrown into this world already fully formed rather than seeing it created like the former story. Also because, as I'm assuming, they may end up going into more detail regarding the takeover in a later issue (we do got 10 more parts worth of story in this arc), so I'm willing to wait and see if they end up answering.

I checked out the BC page, and what he discusses does make sense, especially regarding the themes of time, and the obvious "Crisis" references I missed. I do know that the initial plan was that Scott Snyder was doing his "Crisis" event in the conclusion of his Justice League story (at #50) and that Bendis, King, and Johns are all aware and have contributed to the ideas. And now with DC going back to all monthly series in 2020, that will mean JL50 will be in December, which will also be Bat/Cat #12, (and that's not to mention that the main Batman book is supposedly gonna be setting up for a "big 2021 Batman story"), which makes me think we may be waiting a little while longer for the next big full on "reboot".

[millernumber1]

I leave on vacation for a week and come back to two back to back issues of Batman waiting for me. Awesome!

They were so different in tone from each other. Overall, they showed me that Batman was not broken after all by the loss of Catwoman. A little bent, yes, but not broken. It was important to establish that before he was actually re-united with her. Moving on to #75, him going to meet her means that he sees her role as vital to ultimately getting the victory over Bane.

Very excited about what is to come. Some of King's best stories have involved team-ups between Cat and Bat.

Josh McDonald obviously needs to take up another hobby, and not reading books he doesn't like.

As I said, I like Josh. But there's a reason I volunteer for books that I at least partly enjoy reading, because I've been a community member for various fandoms (Elementary, Batman, etc) where the reviewer for a site just decides they hate most of what they're reviewing, but the management for the site refuses to find someone new to review it, and so you're stuck just reading week after week of "this is bad and I don't like it" when you actually think it's good, or at least doesn't have all of the flaws the reviewer is repeating.

I am really curious about something Thomas Batman said in #69 - when Bane thinks he's won, he's actually lost. That makes me think that as you say, Batman actually may already have a plan in motion, even though it looks like he's on the ropes.

I don't see why his opinion would be less valid than the King-fawners. I share 100%, but can't express it as eloquentely.

1) please don't call people in the thread disrespectful names like "King-fawners". King fans is fine.

2) This is an enjoyment thread. There's threads every week about how bad King's run is. That's why I started this thread - because I wanted a place where people could talk about what they liked. And I've brought up things I didn't like about the run here in the thread. But if your whole purpose for posting is to trash the issue or the run, this isn't the place for that.

I just now realized that the Memory of the Mountain is part of the second annual. Does that mean that really is King's future for Bruce and Selina and they actually will marry by the end of his run?

I love that little reference, largely because the Annual #2 is one of my favorite comics ever. I think there's a real chance that the marriage is going forward because of that!

While I have agreed that I do think Bane being responsible for pretty much everything in the run was a little underwhelming, and even the explanation issue didn't exactly make things clear how much control he had pre-wedding, it didn't ruin my overall enjoyment of the run and those previous stories still work whether you take that information or not.

As for having Gotham suddenly taken over without any real build up, I don't mind it, at least at the moment, because it makes it different from something like No Man's Land, being thrown into this world already fully formed rather than seeing it created like the former story. Also because, as I'm assuming, they may end up going into more detail regarding the takeover in a later issue (we do got 10 more parts worth of story in this arc), so I'm willing to wait and see if they end up answering.

I checked out the BC page, and what he discusses does make sense, especially regarding the themes of time, and the obvious "Crisis" references I missed. I do know that the initial plan was that Scott Snyder was doing his "Crisis" event in the conclusion of his Justice League story (at #50) and that Bendis, King, and Johns are all aware and have contributed to the ideas. And now with DC going back to all monthly series in 2020, that will mean JL50 will be in December, which will also be Bat/Cat #12, (and that's not to mention that the main Batman book is supposedly gonna be setting up for a "big 2021 Batman story"), which makes me think we may be waiting a little while longer for the next big full on "reboot".

I'm curious about why Bane being "behind it all" is underwhelming. What kind of reveal might have been more whelming (to borrow a phrase from the Young Justice show ).

[Inversed]

I'm curious about why Bane being "behind it all" is underwhelming. What kind of reveal might have been more whelming (to borrow a phrase from the Young Justice show ).

Personally for me, it just seems like it required way too much control, both physically and emotionally, on Bane's part to know exactly what the complicated outcome would be, and seemed like too easy of an answer to go "Everything was always the plan of one dude".

I like the idea of Bane being smart enough to come up with back up plans, or can create new ones to accommodate his situations. Like Gotham and Gotham Girl was his Plan A, and after Batman beat him in I Am Suicide, and the "purposefully locked in Arkham" plot is something he figures out during I Am Bane. We still could easily find out some more info during this arc that could clarify things, but all the solo Bane moments in I Am Suicide really emphasize that he just wanted Batman to suffer, and PP for his venom.

Also I think him purposefully doing all of this in order to play matchmaker with him and Catwoman, just to break them off and hurt him feels like too much fourth-dimensional chess for Bane to know it would exactly go down like that. Again, this doesn't ruin the run and the thematic weight of all the stories, its just a personal issue of mine.

[millernumber1]

Personally for me, it just seems like it required way too much control, both physically and emotionally, on Bane's part to know exactly what the complicated outcome would be, and seemed like too easy of an answer to go "Everything was always the plan of one dude".

I like the idea of Bane being smart enough to come up with back up plans, or can create new ones to accommodate his situations. Like Gotham and Gotham Girl was his Plan A, and after Batman beat him in I Am Suicide, and the "purposefully locked in Arkham" plot is something he figures out during I Am Bane. We still could easily find out some more info during this arc that could clarify things, but all the solo Bane moments in I Am Suicide really emphasize that he just wanted Batman to suffer, and PP for his venom.

Also I think him purposefully doing all of this in order to play matchmaker with him and Catwoman, just to break them off and hurt him feels like too much fourth-dimensional chess for Bane to know it would exactly go down like that. Again, this doesn't ruin the run and the thematic weight of all the stories, its just a personal issue of mine.

I can see that. The idea that one person could predict what another person could do with that kind of precision is kind of silly in real life. But this is Batman, where Batman regularly plans like that. So I thought it was a fun reversal of "prep time."

[Inversed]

I can see that. The idea that one person could predict what another person could do with that kind of precision is kind of silly in real life. But this is Batman, where Batman regularly plans like that. So I thought it was a fun reversal of "prep time."

Yeah, that's the one thing I do like about "Banegod" thematically, looking at it as a criticism of the "Batgod" interpretation, having a very vulnerable and real Batman portrayal, and putting him against a too perfect almost omnipresent threat that mirrors his own uber-competent past selves, showing how he can still come out on top in the end. I also don't think this version of Batman is nowhere near as "weak" or "incompetent" like I know alot of the detractors feel he is.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, that's the one thing I do like about "Banegod" thematically, looking at it as a criticism of the "Batgod" interpretation, having a very vulnerable and real Batman portrayal, and putting him against a too perfect almost omnipresent threat that mirrors his own uber-competent past selves, showing how he can still come out on top in the end. I also don't think this version of Batman is nowhere near as "weak" or "incompetent" like I know alot of the detractors feel he is.

Agreed. I mean, this version of Batman walked all the way across frozen Russia. And most of his plans did work, prior to #50 - AND he managed to save himself from Bane's first trap post-wedding, with Mr. Freeze!

[Mr. White]

It is a nightmare - an evil version of reality. But I really don't understand all the "it doesn't make sense" "there are too many questions" "there is no explanation" comments. I feel like I understand exactly why we got here, and it makes pretty solid sense to me. I have maybe one or two questions left, but my big one is - how will Batman and Catwoman heal their relationship, and how will they beat Bane?

The "problem" people have (including me sometimes) are the gaps.
While I don't expect you to tell/show me everything and sure this is comics so belief is to be suspended sometimes; there are some things that have raised eyebrows.
E.g. the complete takeover of the entire city. I get King may tell us how but still it's a bit jarring atm.
Truth be told I think this story would have worked better with a different character. Not because Batman is sacred and shouldn't be touched but more to the fact that there's so much history and character development that such stories are a bit too radical.

Anyway - let's see if King sticks to landing...

[Swallowtail]

Josh McDonald obviously needs to take up another hobby, and not reading books he doesn't like.

I agree that hate reading sort of poisons the soul and you can get to a place where everything annoys you. Ultimately it hurts no one but the reader.

But I think he did hand it off to another writer for a while. But Batman News is essentially down to just him and Brian Warsaw now, so it’s not like they can’t cover Batman.

[Chubistian]

I was afraid that this issue was going to feel as a rehash of Bane ruling Gotham like he did in the middle segment of Knightfall. But Tom King approached the story in a way that I couldn't see coming and that I think makes the comic original and escapes from the "villain rules the city with chaos" trope and goes along with Bane's personality. I love seeing this new status quo and, while I don't always like Tony S. Daniel, he did an amazing job this time. If I have to name a problem, I would say the Lex Luthor part went nowhere, but even then the dialogue was interesting and at least gave more information about the new elements at motion in Gotham City. The pieces keep falling on their site and the run is more and more cohesive with each issue that comes out.

[millernumber1]

The "problem" people have (including me sometimes) are the gaps.
While I don't expect you to tell/show me everything and sure this is comics so belief is to be suspended sometimes; there are some things that have raised eyebrows.
E.g. the complete takeover of the entire city. I get King may tell us how but still it's a bit jarring atm.
Truth be told I think this story would have worked better with a different character. Not because Batman is sacred and shouldn't be touched but more to the fact that there's so much history and character development that such stories are a bit too radical.

Anyway - let's see if King sticks to landing...

Well. I learned when talking to a bunch of more "creatively" minded people that they really love gaps and ambiguity - it allows for freedom of imagination, and causes you to think more about what you've read. Sometimes it does create frustration, but I've found that thinking through King's gaps and lacunae promotes my engagement, rather than frustrates me. However, I do know that a lot of people have more of your experience than mine.

As for King doing this story with some other character - Owlman, or Nite Owl, or Potato Man - I think he's actually made it incredibly specific to Batman, with issues like #44 and then #69, mining the rich history of the characters.

I, too, hope that King can stick the landing. And I'll say right here that if he pulls a rehash of Hush on the ending, with Batman paranoid and distrustful of Catwoman and his family? Yeah, I'm out.

But I hope he won't.

I agree that hate reading sort of poisons the soul and you can get to a place where everything annoys you. Ultimately it hurts no one but the reader.

But I think he did hand it off to another writer for a while. But Batman News is essentially down to just him and Brian Warsaw now, so it’s not like they can’t cover Batman.

Just checked the archives - looks like Josh handed it to Elena Carillo (one of my favorite reviewers over there) during the Knightmars and Price arc. And she also hated them. Which is a bummer, since I thought Knightmares was a fantastic arc. Also, I think you're right - looks like Elena is gone, too. Given the toxicity of the comments sections and the general hate-review approach most of the reviewers seem to favor, I'm not surprised they're burning out. A shame.

[Swallowtail]

Just checked the archives - looks like Josh handed it to Elena Carillo (one of my favorite reviewers over there) during the Knightmars and Price arc. And she also hated them. Which is a bummer, since I thought Knightmares was a fantastic arc. Also, I think you're right - looks like Elena is gone, too. Given the toxicity of the comments sections and the general hate-review approach most of the reviewers seem to favor, I'm not surprised they're burning out. A shame.

Yeah, it’s a bit of a red flag.