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  1. #1741
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Great issue.

    I loved the reveal behind Thomas's motivations, and loved the Memento-esque approach to the backwards narrative (appropriate enough since City Of Bane has more than a few parallels to Dark Knight Rises).

    Can't wait for 85!
    This was very Grayson: Future's End. I really enjoyed it. I'm very worried, though, that because Thomas tells Bruce to marry Selina, he won't, and this all turns into "Batman can't change."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I walked away from the X-men because I was exasperated by the alternative realities and the hyperconvoluted plots and what did I find in Batman? A run heavily based on alternative realities and hyperconvoluted plots; is it some kind of curse?
    To be fair, King isn't unique in relying on convoluted plots and alternate realities. Snyder's plots are very convoluted, and issue #49 goes into alternate realities quite a bit. Morrison is even more convoluted and the 666 future is vital to his plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I liked the issue. It adds more depth to Thomas' motivations and I enjoyed the parallels, which are essentials in King's run. Jorge Fornes is spectacular as always, same with Jordie Bellaire. There were two mistakes, though. One I can forgive, which was a coloring error that made Flash look like Reverse Flash. The other, was making the Penguin one of the rogues Thomas kills. The Penguin was alive in the original Flashpoint Batman story by Azzarello and Risso and he was helping Thomas in his business with the casino Wayne owned. It's one of those errors that I wonder how it slipped through writer and editors. He's even in the cover of the first chapter of Knight of Vengeance wearing the same outfit he does in this issue!
    I liked Thomas's motivation reveal here as well. And as I've been predicting Skeets as the culprit, Reverse Flash being the villain is a nice surprise.

    Fornes is a gift - I really hope he and King are doing something soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    Finally, another full Fornes issue!

    I don't know if the entire issue should've been dedicated to the Thomas Wayne flashback, but I suppose that it was necessary to spend a decent bit getting down the motivations for FP Thomas Wayne (and I suppose also exposit what happened in The Button for anyone reading the run who skipped The Button) and I do find that it was one of King's better written issues in this final stretch of his run.

    Though I do have to agree, how did nobody catch the Flashpoint Penguin error? Unless King decided Flashpoint was one of those alternate continuities where Oswald had a completely identical twin brother named Otto who became the Penguin while Oswald became Wayne's employee. I think maybe instead of the Penguin, King should've used Falcone or one of the other starter villains of Batman to further the parallels with Bruce's career.
    Given how many people I talk to are frustrated with not knowing how or why Thomas is doing what he's doing, I think a full issue is justified. And the build up to this in Beasts of Burden, and even some of the others, makes a lot of sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    The use of reverse flash instead of Dr Manhattan for explaining Flashpoint Batman surviving was a nice of to continuity.
    It does make the run feel less dependent on outside stories, which I'm generally in favor of.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  2. #1742

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I liked the issue. It adds more depth to Thomas' motivations and I enjoyed the parallels, which are essentials in King's run. Jorge Fornes is spectacular as always, same with Jordie Bellaire. There were two mistakes, though. One I can forgive, which was a coloring error that made Flash look like Reverse Flash. The other, was making the Penguin one of the rogues Thomas kills. The Penguin was alive in the original Flashpoint Batman story by Azzarello and Risso and he was helping Thomas in his business with the casino Wayne owned. It's one of those errors that I wonder how it slipped through writer and editors. He's even in the cover of the first chapter of Knight of Vengeance wearing the same outfit he does in this issue!
    Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal?


    PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing

  3. #1743
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I think if this wasn't the penultimate issue, this would be even more fantastic than it already is. Fornes art, Thomas' backstory, how it all comes together and how its structured, executed extremely well.

    Just because of how much story still needs to be wrapped up, and we only have one, albeit slightly longer, issue left, worried there may not be enough time left to get out everything they need to without feeling rushed. If there were maybe a few more issues after this it might've worked better overall, but still just on its own its a truly great one-off.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  4. #1744
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal?


    PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing
    No kidding. Up in the Sky is phenomenal, and I hope it's remembered alongside Superman Unchained as a really good work by the current Batman writer of the time.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  5. #1745
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169

    "Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  6. #1746

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I think if this wasn't the penultimate issue, this would be even more fantastic than it already is. Fornes art, Thomas' backstory, how it all comes together and how its structured, executed extremely well.

    Just because of how much story still needs to be wrapped up, and we only have one, albeit slightly longer, issue left, worried there may not be enough time left to get out everything they need to without feeling rushed. If there were maybe a few more issues after this it might've worked better overall, but still just on its own its a truly great one-off.
    This is my fear, I think it will leave us with a lot of dangling threads that may be picked up in Bat/Cat. I hope that we get an update on it's release date soon; I wish we still had double shipped King books because waiting another 16 - 18 months is unbearable I may just trade wait and do another re-read once they are released.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169

    "Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!
    I totally forgot about that and I didn't even think that was a canon thing that happened. I thought that was Bruce thinking about somehow getting powers.

    I wonder if it will somehow heal Gotham Girl and potentially Alfred similar to how Clark was healed after Death of Superman (it just takes a while, so we can have Alfred off the board).

  7. #1747
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    King posted this today: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...25868380295169

    "Ah, that’s awesome. And this issue plays a key role in the end of this story in Batman 85." - speaking of Batman Secret Files #1. The platinum kryptonite (I think that's what it was)!
    Oh hey, just barely sneaking it in, but that means True Strength will finally be relevant! Though I hope this won't be a case of him using it in order to win the fight, and that its used in a more interesting and clever way.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    This is my fear, I think it will leave us with a lot of dangling threads that may be picked up in Bat/Cat. I hope that we get an update on it's release date soon; I wish we still had double shipped King books because waiting another 16 - 18 months is unbearable I may just trade wait and do another re-read once they are released.
    It does seem to me like all the main plot threads (the city, Gotham Girl, Bane, Thomas, Psycho Pirate, the family, etc.) will get resolved in the final issue, and Bat/Cat will be the thematic continuation/conclusion of the story, showing where Bruce's journey goes to next, and what it means for their relationship now.

    I am disappointed we'll have to wait longer for the rest of the issues, but it is good that they're being allowed to take their time and don't have to rush to get it out at a certain time. Plus by structuring it like the standalone maxi series he has experience with and not as part of the long ongoing will probably mean it'll be paced alot better. Most of the arcs from this year do feel like they are a consequence of rushing to meet the deadlines, working around other projects, and last minute rewrites, so this may be the best approach.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  8. #1748
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Maybe he killed Penguin after their deal?


    PS: If you're a King fan don't sleep on his Superman Mini holy crap it's amazing
    The problem is that Penguin was alongside Thomas in the beggining of Knights of Vengeance, which takes place when Catwoman is already in wheelchairs and here the murder of Penguin is way before Thomas even met Catwoman. I totally want to check Up in the Sky, but I'm waiting to see how it's going to be collected in Spain.

    If the platinium kryptonite is back, I think it will deal with Thomas being able to defeat the Batfamily, or at least it's what I would want. But it being a mechanism to help Gotham Girl works too
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  9. #1749
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    This was very Grayson: Future's End. I really enjoyed it. I'm very worried, though, that because Thomas tells Bruce to marry Selina, he won't, and this all turns into "Batman can't change."



    To be fair, King isn't unique in relying on convoluted plots and alternate realities. Snyder's plots are very convoluted, and issue #49 goes into alternate realities quite a bit. Morrison is even more convoluted and the 666 future is vital to his plot.



    I liked Thomas's motivation reveal here as well. And as I've been predicting Skeets as the culprit, Reverse Flash being the villain is a nice surprise.

    Fornes is a gift - I really hope he and King are doing something soon!



    Given how many people I talk to are frustrated with not knowing how or why Thomas is doing what he's doing, I think a full issue is justified. And the build up to this in Beasts of Burden, and even some of the others, makes a lot of sense.



    It does make the run feel less dependent on outside stories, which I'm generally in favor of.
    Overall, I think that Bane doing such a convulted trap works as a contraposition of how simple his plan was in Knightfall (which actually was Bird's plan). I think there's something interesting in the idea that the greatest detective is defeated by chaos with no pattern while he tries to uncover something deeper that doesn't really exist.

    I agree that it's better to have Reverse Flash as the answer to the mystery instead of Dr Manhattan and that it stays in a safe distance of Doomsday Clock and its trainwreck of a schedule

    I like that Tom King kinda foreshadowed Riddler's ability to deal with technology more advanced than that of Earth in I Am Bane, when Nygma dissabled security measures made in New Genesis. It fits with the mad genius hyper intelligent villain Scott Snyder "introduced" in his run. I think it makes the reveal that Riddler handled Skeets work
    Last edited by Chubistian; 12-04-2019 at 11:54 AM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  10. #1750

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    The problem is that Penguin was alongside Thomas in the beggining of Knights of Vengeance, which takes place when Catwoman is already in wheelchairs and here the murder of Penguin is way before Thomas even met Catwoman. I totally want to check Up in the Sky, but I'm waiting to see how it's going to be collected in Spain.

    If the platinium kryptonite is back, I think it will deal with Thomas being able to defeat the Batfamily, or at least it's what I would want. But it being a mechanism to help Gotham Girl works too
    I totally forgot about Catwoman in a wheelchair; I guess so did King

  11. #1751
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I totally forgot about Catwoman in a wheelchair; I guess so did King
    Sometimes I think I should read Flashpoint and Flashpoint Batman. Then I remember...oh, yeah, I probably wouldn't enjoy them. So I don't.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  12. #1752
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Sometimes I think I should read Flashpoint and Flashpoint Batman. Then I remember...oh, yeah, I probably wouldn't enjoy them. So I don't.
    I don't like Flashpoint but I do like Knight of Vengeance. It depends how much you dislike Azzarello's writing. Personally, I think he's a mixed bag, but he has some works that I really love
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  13. #1753
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I don't like Flashpoint but I do like Knight of Vengeance. It depends how much you dislike Azzarello's writing. Personally, I think he's a mixed bag, but he has some works that I really love
    I'm really not an Azz fan.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  14. #1754
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    One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles

    Oh well!

  15. #1755
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles

    Oh well!
    I don't see how he wouldn't be able to find out - if he's Batman, he can use the internet, and interrogate people. And he had access to Bane's network, including Riddler, Joker, Skeets, etc.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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