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  1. #1336
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Hickman’s X-Men threads still seem bumping

    So little happens in a comic issue all there is to talk about is the one mandatory moment from each issue written to spark some discussion online while nothing else happens. Used to be each issue was a whole story you could talk about. Now they don’t even tell complete stories.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 10-11-2019 at 11:11 AM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #1337
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Also—how is the Batman/Superman book? I can’t seem to find anything here discussing it.
    It's ok. I buy it because Marquez's art is stunning. I really could not care less about BWL, but so far the Superman/Batman dynamic has been written pretty well.

  3. #1338
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Hickman’s X-Men threads still seem bumping

    So little happens in a comic issue all there is to talk about is the one mandatory moment from each issue written to spark some discussion online while nothing else happens. Used to be each issue was a whole story you could talk about. Now they don’t even tell complete stories.
    I would disagree that nothing happens in Tom King's issues (since that is, after all, the focus of this thread). I generally don't post a TON about the issue unless other people are already posting, since it gets a bit silly if I'm the only one posting stuff. I think as we move into December and the end of the run, we'll start having more stuff, like re-rating every issue, all the arcs, and trying to figure out our reaction to the run as a whole (sorta, since I personally won't consider the run complete until next December with Bat/Cat concluded).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  4. #1339
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I personally think that King's run is slightly better in this regard than most writers because he doesn't try to chain himself to the six issue arc that most people seem to do these days. I do think his best issues are his single issue stories for the most part. But I'd day that for King, every 2-4 of his issues is about the same as an issue of old His stories are shorter in length than everything else by a good bit and seem more like traditional comics storytelling rather than trade waiting, but I don't always find every issue satisfying in the way that it should be. I view each mini-arc as about the amount of story that could be accomplished with one back in the day.

    I personally think King uses too many splash pages that stretch out the page length of a story while not extending the story. So when I finish an issue on a week to week basis, I'm not entirely satisfied because too little has happened.

    When rereading, it flows a lot better because the story reads quickly together like one issue might in the day. So in retrospect Ming's run may feel like it had the same quick pacing and varied storytelling that single issue stories might, but reading it month to month I feel differently.

    Each short arc: The Gift, Superfriends, Tyrant Wing, etc. are memorable, but the individual issues aren't so much to me. Especially compared to comics back in the day.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 10-11-2019 at 12:51 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  5. #1340
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I personally think that King's run is slightly better in this regard than most writers because he doesn't try to chain himself to the six issue arc that most people seem to do these days. I do think his best issues are his single issue stories for the most part. But I'd day that for King, every 2-4 of his issues is about the same as an issue of old His stories are shorter in length than everything else by a good bit and seem more like traditional comics storytelling rather than trade waiting, but I don't always find every issue satisfying in the way that it should be. I view each mini-arc as about the amount of story that could be accomplished with one back in the day.

    I personally think King uses too many splash pages that stretch out the page length of a story while not extending the story. So when I finish an issue on a week to week basis, I'm not entirely satisfied because too little has happened.

    When rereading, it flows a lot better because the story reads quickly together like one issue might in the day. So in retrospect Ming's run may feel like it had the same quick pacing and varied storytelling that single issue stories might, but reading it month to month I feel differently.

    Each short arc: The Gift, Superfriends, Tyrant Wing, etc. are memorable, but the individual issues aren't so much to me. Especially compared to comics back in the day.
    I do adore King's single issues stories, and his 2-3 issue arcs generally. I know a lot of people didn't like Knightmares, but because each had a different artist, and each was so unique in character, I really treasure most of those issues - they really stick in my memory individually.

    I think it's true that in terms of sheer dialogue and "individual events that happen," King probably doesn't pack as many things into each issue (though someone on youtube was just complaining that King's Superman series has too much dialogue, which I found hilarious). I think that King has struggled to figure out how to make each issue satisfying - but I do know from his twitter that it is a goal of his to make each one satisfying. I think in the second half of the run he's gotten a lot better at doing it consistently.

    I'm not completely convinced that the splash pages are just stretching out the page count. You can always make that argument about splash pages, but for me, most of the splash pages do exactly that - they splash me with emotion and images - for example, the two Beaches issues both started with a splash page, a full page reproduction of single panels or scenes from Batman #1 and Batman Year One. Necessary? Not in terms of "stuff happening." But they are 1) really gorgeous, and 2) really hammer home to me the emotional certainty that these stories matter to Batman and Catwoman as characters. King doesn't fill his pages so much with events, as try to fill them with connections between us as readers and the characters - emotional events, rather than physical ones.

    I spent quite a bit of time last night reading a lot of the Denny O'Neil run about Ra's al Ghul and Talia. And while it's true - each one told a complete story, it didn't have the little moments that really sold the emotions for me. I know O'Neil is a master, but I think even he grew a lot as a writer - his Detective Comics Annual #1, featuring a lot of the same things as those early Batman and Detective Comics issues, had a lot of space devoted simply to feeling and wordless scenes. Now, it's true, O'Neil still had a lot more happening, but he started taking more time for the emotions. And it really paid off!

    As for individual issues standing out - I think sometimes, you're right - The Gift, Tyrant Wing definitely don't feel like each issue is that unique - but Superfriends actually really did for me. The first issue was the two couples talking about each other, and the second issue was the date - a clear distinction, even though they flow cleanly into each other. The Wonder Woman two-parter, though, wasn't nearly as neat, and I think not nearly as well done.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  6. #1341
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I heard King say that too, I just don't know if I find it to be true. On a month to month basis, I was felt left wanting more at times, both in regards to character beats and plot. BUT this is mainly in comparison to older comics. I think King may be as good or better than most writers on the stand in that regard. And of course this is only an issue on month to month reading. Going back, King's writing reads much better on the whole than older writing. It absolutely has more time to breathe and establish beats than older stories, while still retaining that brisker more episodic pacing than most runs written for trade. Now that this run is coming to a close, it won't really be as much of a knock against it.

    And what a coincidence! What prompted me to comment was that I was also reading O'Neal and Adams era Batman last night as part of my re-readthrough of Silver/Bronze Age Batman that I'm doing alongside my reading of The Batcave Companion (which is an excellent book I picked up based on King's Batman Day recommendation!)
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  7. #1342
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I heard King say that too, I just don't know if I find it to be true. On a month to month basis, I was felt left wanting more at times, both in regards to character beats and plot. BUT this is mainly in comparison to older comics. I think King may be as good or better than most writers on the stand in that regard. And of course this is only an issue on month to month reading. Going back, King's writing reads much better on the whole than older writing. It absolutely has more time to breathe and establish beats than older stories, while still retaining that brisker more episodic pacing than most runs written for trade. Now that this run is coming to a close, it won't really be as much of a knock against it.

    And what a coincidence! What prompted me to comment was that I was also reading O'Neal and Adams era Batman last night as part of my re-readthrough of Silver/Bronze Age Batman that I'm doing alongside my reading of The Batcave Companion (which is an excellent book I picked up based on King's Batman Day recommendation!)
    Haha. I'm trying to remember why I wanted to read the O'Neil comics again...

    I'm curious what "era" of comics do you count among "older" comics. O'Neil is actually about my tolerance of how far back I can read and genuinely enjoy comics regularly. My "era" begins with Year One, and I mostly read stuff from 2000 onwards. In that context, I think King does fairly well. But if you have the experience and taste to enjoy the earlier stuff than 1986, I can definitely see how King falls short - but it's an incredibly different market. 20-22 pages rather than the much longer page counts (not to mention panel counts) of the early days.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  8. #1343
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I grew up on the black and white phonebook reprints of the Schwartz/Infantino New Look era. So much so that the first two 600 page volumes are seared into my brain. Then I moved on to more modern stuff, like Hush, Year One, and the New 52.

    But with the established tolerance to the height of Batmania camp, I can go back and enjoy many older stories. I've since tracked down all 6 of the Batman showcase reprints that go from the New Look until halfway through Adams's run as part of my readthrough of all of Robin's appearances between 1964 and 1984 (which was itself in anticipation for the Judas Contract animated movies and the Terminus Agenda over in Deathstroke). And what cool about this era is watching the modern Batman form and evolve from his campy 60s self. It has actually become my preferred Batman era. With Dick as Robin but away at Hudson University, and Barbara still active as Batgirl, I find that this time period is a close to it gets to pure, distilled Batman. Probably because my introduction to Batman was the Animated Series, which draws heavily from this era It's not written better, but it hits all the classic beats. But I totally get that its an acquired taste. I can't even get my brother my age who also reads comics to even try it.

    Have you read Englehart's run? King often cites that as among some of his favorite Batman comics behind the Dark Knight Returns and Year One. In even fewer issues, you can see that same maturation take place.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 10-11-2019 at 06:45 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #1344
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I grew up on the black and white phonebook reprints of the Schwartz/Infantino New Look era. So much so that the first two 600 page volumes are seared into my brain. Then I moved on to more modern stuff, like Hush, Year One, and the New 52.

    But with the established tolerance to the height of Batmania camp, I can go back and enjoy many older stories. I've since tracked down all 6 of the Batman showcase reprints that go from the New Look until halfway through Adams's run as part of my readthrough of all of Robin's appearances between 1964 and 1984 (which was itself in anticipation for the Judas Contract animated movies and the Terminus Agenda over in Deathstroke). And what cool about this era is watching the modern Batman form and evolve from his campy 60s self. It has actually become my preferred Batman era. With Dick as Robin but away at Hudson University, and Barbara still active as Batgirl, I find that this time period is a close to it gets to pure, distilled Batman. Probably because my introduction to Batman was the Animated Series, which draws heavily from this era It's not written better, but it hits all the classic beats. But I totally get that its an acquired taste. I can't even get my brother my age who also reads comics to even try it.

    Have you read Englehart's run? King often cites that as among some of his favorite Batman comics behind the Dark Knight Returns and Year One. In even fewer issues, you can see that same maturation take place.
    I have not read Englehart's run - is there a good list of it? I love DCUniverse for empowering deep dives like this.

    And I admire your breadth of taste. I loved reading Batman #232, and seeing how O'Neil and his artists used Batman #1, and then looking forward to Frank Miller using it again. It's beautiful (and part of why I love Tom King for grabbing that stuff too).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  10. #1345
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    I read it through Legends of the Dark Knight Marshall Rogers collection. He didn't draw the first few issues, so I'm actually working to catch up on those. But it looks to me as though he wrote Batman #311 and then Detective Comics #469-76. The Batman issues immediately after him by Len Wein have the debut of Kite-Man, which I am definitely intending to get around to that! And with the Crazy Quilt issue around then, I feel like King may certainly draw his whacky rogues from around this time.
    Last edited by Pohzee; 10-11-2019 at 07:24 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  11. #1346
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    I read it through Legends of the Dark Knight Marshall Rogers collection. He didn't draw the first few issues, so I'm actually working to catch up on those. But it looks to me as though he wrote Batman #311 and then Detective Comics #469-76. The Batman issues immediately after him by Len Wein have the debut of Kite-Man, which I am definitely intending to get around to that! And with the Crazy Quilt issue around then, I feel like King may certainly draw his whacky rogues from around this time.
    If King Tut is around that time period, then it's virtually a certainty!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  12. #1347
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    https://www.comicsbeat.com/exclusive-preview-batman-81/

    Preview is up! And it has some of those promised answers from King's tweets on Batman Day!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  13. #1348
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    So, what did people think? For me, it wasn't nearly as good as 78-79, but I enjoyed 80, and I'm enjoying 81 too. I'm a bit frustrated that we don't know what's going on with Alfred, since 79 said that "Alfred signalled he was safe." But there's still lots of room for resurrection even if he is dead. I liked the "communication through sparring" thing, and the Clayface thing is a cool bit, linking with Tynion's Detective (I wonder if he's setting up for Tynion coming back, which would be pretty cool of him).

    A lot of people are not liking JRJR's art, but I actually really liked it. I'm already a fan of his, but I like seeing his take - it's different, and bold. I don't know if I'd love a whole run of him on Batman - and I wasn't a huge fan of All Star Batman where he drew it - but I like what he did here. And interestingly, I liked Tomeu Morey's colors on his art a lot more than Morey's colors on Tony Daniel's art, even though Morey is using the same basic color plans he uses with Daniel.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  14. #1349
    Reader of Stuff Hilden B. Lade's Avatar
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    Once again, Batfamily fans are not too pleased by a King Batman issue. :P

    I'm not too sure about how I feel about this issue's reveals that some of the big stuff that happened in The Fall and the Fallen was actually part of Bruce's plan to fight back all along. It kind of does cheapen the impact for Bruce snapping and hitting Tim for me. Though simultaneously, for a run that has spent a lot of time on Bruce breaking lately, it's nice to see that he was also fighting back earlier as well.

    And I guess Clayface as Joker rules out an "Alfred wasn't really dead Clayface was just pretending" backdoor to his death, unless King wants to drag one of the other non-Karlo Clayfaces out of obscurity.

  15. #1350
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    Once again, Batfamily fans are not too pleased by a King Batman issue. :P

    I'm not too sure about how I feel about this issue's reveals that some of the big stuff that happened in The Fall and the Fallen was actually part of Bruce's plan to fight back all along. It kind of does cheapen the impact for Bruce snapping and hitting Tim for me. Though simultaneously, for a run that has spent a lot of time on Bruce breaking lately, it's nice to see that he was also fighting back earlier as well.

    And I guess Clayface as Joker rules out an "Alfred wasn't really dead Clayface was just pretending" backdoor to his death, unless King wants to drag one of the other non-Karlo Clayfaces out of obscurity.
    I'm a Batfamily fan, and I liked it. I'm not quite sure why everyone's so mad. Batman spent a good chunk of time talking about how his family were important to him.

    I mean, I'm a little irritated that Steph was left out, but that's just me.

    I like the "it was part of my plan" thing - it makes the idea that it's not just one fall, it's not just what it seemed on the surface - gives it layers. And it supports my reading of the pit scene in 74, that the hand reaching up is BOTH Thomas and Bruce, not just one of them.

    I am a bit bummed that Alfred's death isn't as easily fixed by Clayface as it could be, but I think the Thomas for Alfred trade at the Nain Pit is still very much in the offing.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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