King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[millernumber1]

Agreed. So many great artists on this run but Fornes is my favorite of the bunch. I'd be happy if he drew the rest of King's run. He out Mazzucchellis Mazzucchelli.

Well, I'm slightly biased in favor of Lee Weeks in the Mazzucchelli comparisons (because of his work on Daredevil, and the way that Week's Bruce almost explicitly draws from Mazzuchelli's face shape in Year One), but Fornes...so good. A feast of riches!

[Pohzee]

I agree that both Weeks and Fornes are some of the best artists suited for Batman out there, the best we've had on the book. But weirdly enough, I don't feel as though they are imperative artists for King's run.

I feel as though they are both great for more street-level/noir stories while King's overarching Bane narrative is very "superhero." So while definitely I'm not complaining that they are working with King, I feel as though they may better be used elsewhere. If that makes sense.

[millernumber1]

I agree that both Weeks and Fornes are some of the best artists suited for Batman out there, the best we've had on the book. But weirdly enough, I don't feel as though they are imperative artists for King's run.

I feel as though they are both great for more street-level/noir stories while King's overarching Bane narrative is very "superhero." So while definitely I'm not complaining that they are working with King, I feel as though they may better be used elsewhere. If that makes sense.

Interesting. I think King has used both of them very well, so far, in keeping them very street level. We'll have to see how Knightmares uses them...

[Inversed]

I have a question I'm curious about regarding Bane's plot in the book currently. Do you think that Bane started planning his master manipulation scheme after he was defeated in I Am Bane, or do you think that and everything else going on in the book was part of his big plan?

Personally at the moment, I'm hoping for the former, just because I think Bane manipulating everything takes away from the impact of I Am Gotham, Suicide, and Bane. I think it'd be much more interesting to see just how far Bane's power reaches and what he could accomplish all from one location, rather than just being the next step in an extremely convoluted plan.

[millernumber1]

I have a question I'm curious about regarding Bane's plot in the book currently. Do you think that Bane started planning his master manipulation scheme after he was defeated in I Am Bane, or do you think that and everything else going on in the book was part of his big plan?

Personally at the moment, I'm hoping for the former, just because I think Bane manipulating everything takes away from the impact of I Am Gotham, Suicide, and Bane. I think it'd be much more interesting to see just how far Bane's power reaches and what he could accomplish all from one location, rather than just being the next step in an extremely convoluted plan.

I think that Bane had to be planning this beforehand, because it seems clear to me he had a hand in Holly and Selina's drama that sets up Selina's situation in I Am Suicide. I don't think it takes away from it - my personal interpretation is that Bane had plans and contingency plans - he expected Batman to stop him and put him in Arkham at some point, but didn't necessarily know which of his contingencies would cause it. I also think that all of the emotions that Batman and Catwoman had were real, even though they were manipulated by Bane.

Anyone see this on twitter? I'm really curious to know if Tony Daniel has spilled the beans about the arc after The Fall and the Fallen: https://twitter.com/TonyDanielx2/sta...40591547850754

[Inversed]

I think that Bane had to be planning this beforehand, because it seems clear to me he had a hand in Holly and Selina's drama that sets up Selina's situation in I Am Suicide. I don't think it takes away from it - my personal interpretation is that Bane had plans and contingency plans - he expected Batman to stop him and put him in Arkham at some point, but didn't necessarily know which of his contingencies would cause it. I also think that all of the emotions that Batman and Catwoman had were real, even though they were manipulated by Bane.

I am curious about what's going on with Holly, because she does come out of nowhere (in this universe), but I have no idea if this is the usual "new writer" thing of introducing new concepts as if they were always there, or actually a big piece of the puzzle. Going back and re-reading the issues, especially with the scenes with Bane alone, it does seem very clear that he was actually using Psycho Pirate to help him get better, rather than just as a tool/excuse to lure and go after Batman, so I wonder how that'll all be explained.

And yeah, that is something he'll have to be very careful with, I believe the emotions are real too, but even accidentally insinuating Bane was manipulating them into getting together could be dangerous.

Anyone see this on twitter? I'm really curious to know if Tony Daniel has spilled the beans about the arc after The Fall and the Fallen: https://twitter.com/TonyDanielx2/sta...40591547850754

Hmm that's interesting, since he said July that must be what #75 is (King said the title was spoilery and that does sound pretty spoilery). spoilers:

I guess this means we're gonna see Bane take over Gotham, that's something I'm all for seeing, though I wonder if this is gonna be just an arc or two, or be the status quo for the rest of the run.

end of spoilers

[millernumber1]

I am curious about what's going on with Holly, because she does come out of nowhere (in this universe), but I have no idea if this is the usual "new writer" thing of introducing new concepts as if they were always there, or actually a big piece of the puzzle. Going back and re-reading the issues, especially with the scenes with Bane alone, it does seem very clear that he was actually using Psycho Pirate to help him get better, rather than just as a tool/excuse to lure and go after Batman, so I wonder how that'll all be explained.

And yeah, that is something he'll have to be very careful with, I believe the emotions are real too, but even accidentally insinuating Bane was manipulating them into getting together could be dangerous.

Hmm that's interesting, since he said July that must be what #75 is (King said the title was spoilery and that does sound pretty spoilery). spoilers:

I guess this means we're gonna see Bane take over Gotham, that's something I'm all for seeing, though I wonder if this is gonna be just an arc or two, or be the status quo for the rest of the run.

end of spoilers

I am really interested to see if Bane really did want to go straight - to be free of Venom and Batman, and just live as ruler of Santa Prisca. I think that there was a contingency plan in Bane's mind where he would do exactly that - but I think he had to know that Psycho Pirate being used by Hugo Strange was going to cause problems with Batman, so there wasn't really a way for him to not know a confrontation was coming. One reason I think that Bane was planning even before I Am Gotham started (even without taking into account that fact that I think he gave Gotham and Gotham Girl their powers) is that Batman was acting really crazy in both I Am Gotham and I Am Suicide - BECAUSE of Catwoman's actions - Bruce believed that the woman he loves was a mass murderer, and that drove him to the kind of despair we see in Batman #1, on the plane. Because of this despair, Bruce's plan to get Psycho Pirate is irrational - instead of, you know, asking Bane if he could bring Claire to Santa Prisca for treatment, he breaks so many laws and just steals the Pirate from another country. I still firmly believe that Batman was acting as a villain in I Am Suicide - however, that doesn't preclude Bane from planning to put Batman in that position by bombing the orphan's home and setting Holly and Selina down that path, and putting Gotham and Gotham Girl where they were.

I think Bane didn't create any of Batman and Catwoman's love - but he did constantly put people in Bruce and Selina's paths that put the idea of marriage, a fundamental change in Batman's life and goals - into their heads.

If that title is true, I'm really curious to see how it fits with other similar Batman stories in the past! Whatever the case, I'm really pumped about both Knightmares and what comes next!

[Inversed]

I am really interested to see if Bane really did want to go straight - to be free of Venom and Batman, and just live as ruler of Santa Prisca. I think that there was a contingency plan in Bane's mind where he would do exactly that - but I think he had to know that Psycho Pirate being used by Hugo Strange was going to cause problems with Batman, so there wasn't really a way for him to not know a confrontation was coming. One reason I think that Bane was planning even before I Am Gotham started (even without taking into account that fact that I think he gave Gotham and Gotham Girl their powers) is that Batman was acting really crazy in both I Am Gotham and I Am Suicide - BECAUSE of Catwoman's actions - Bruce believed that the woman he loves was a mass murderer, and that drove him to the kind of despair we see in Batman #1, on the plane. Because of this despair, Bruce's plan to get Psycho Pirate is irrational - instead of, you know, asking Bane if he could bring Claire to Santa Prisca for treatment, he breaks so many laws and just steals the Pirate from another country. I still firmly believe that Batman was acting as a villain in I Am Suicide - however, that doesn't preclude Bane from planning to put Batman in that position by bombing the orphan's home and setting Holly and Selina down that path, and putting Gotham and Gotham Girl where they were.

I think Bane didn't create any of Batman and Catwoman's love - but he did constantly put people in Bruce and Selina's paths that put the idea of marriage, a fundamental change in Batman's life and goals - into their heads.

If that title is true, I'm really curious to see how it fits with other similar Batman stories in the past! Whatever the case, I'm really pumped about both Knightmares and what comes next!

Ah, I never read that Batman's actions in #1 were because he was upset about Catwoman being arrested. Based on their interactions in I Am Suicide and Rooftops, it seemed to me like he knew from the beginning that Selina was innocent, he just didn't know the why and how. And the whole reason she took the fall is because she knew he would know she was innocent and get her out. Also to be fair, no matter even if Batman wasn't acting completely irrational after everything going on, I doubt he would simply go to ask him to help her, given their history.

That just leaves the question of if War Of Jokes And Riddles and The Button were also part of his master plan, because unless he has time travel, there's absolutely no way he could've been involved in either of those....then again Skeets is supposedly on his side....oops

I do think Superfriends and the 2nd Annual are very important in that they are the proof that the love is real without manipulation, I'm just worried if the execution of a future reveal is done a certain way, it'll lead to people starting to believe that the entire love and everything gone on the book would be fake.

If its true I'm imagining the Court Of Owls mixed with No Man's Land. I'm excited to see where all of this is gonna end up going, and I'm hoping we don't have to wait too long for a Catwoman reunion.

[millernumber1]

Ah, I never read that Batman's actions in #1 were because he was upset about Catwoman being arrested. Based on their interactions in I Am Suicide and Rooftops, it seemed to me like he knew from the beginning that Selina was innocent, he just didn't know the why and how. And the whole reason she took the fall is because she knew he would know she was innocent and get her out. Also to be fair, no matter even if Batman wasn't acting completely irrational after everything going on, I doubt he would simply go to ask him to help her, given their history.

That just leaves the question of if War Of Jokes And Riddles and The Button were also part of his master plan, because unless he has time travel, there's absolutely no way he could've been involved in either of those....then again Skeets is supposedly on his side....oops

I do think Superfriends and the 2nd Annual are very important in that they are the proof that the love is real without manipulation, I'm just worried if the execution of a future reveal is done a certain way, it'll lead to people starting to believe that the entire love and everything gone on the book would be fake.

If its true I'm imagining the Court Of Owls mixed with No Man's Land. I'm excited to see where all of this is gonna end up going, and I'm hoping we don't have to wait too long for a Catwoman reunion.

It's possible I'm reading Batman #1 differently because it was quite a transition shock from Snyder's Batman (and, for me, Tynion's Batman, since I spent a lot more time from 2014 to 2016 immersed in Tynion's vision of Batman in Batman Eternal, Batman and Robin Eternal, and Batman #52). Batman felt "off" to me, and so reading backwards from #50, I think Batman was "off" because of Catwoman. I think Bruce WANTED to believe Selina was innocent, but because she was so adamant in proclaiming her guilt in the face of the death penalty, his confidence was shaken.

Maybe Batman wouldn't necessarily have asked Bane nicely to help with Gotham Girl, but I doubt he would have launched a full-out assault on the capital.

I don't think War of Jokes and Riddles is part of his plan, but given that Joker is one of Bane's pawns, I have no doubt he knew about the conclusion of it and that weak spot in Batman's psyche. Though since that was originally supposed to be an independent miniseries, I don't know how closely connected it was with King's longterm plot.

The Button - I think, SOMEHOW, Bane is responsible for Thomas Wayne. Or vice versa - Thomas Wayne is responsible for Bane. But given the revelation from Daniel, the former seems more likely.

I hope that King holds true to his promise that his run is about Batman and Catwoman's love, and not just about Bane's hate.

I'm also imagining how this will compare to Batman Eternal's martial law section - which frankly, much as I love Batman Eternal, was a bit too hastily done to really feel the impact. I'm curious to see how King sets it up and how long he keeps it in place.

[Inversed]

It's possible I'm reading Batman #1 differently because it was quite a transition shock from Snyder's Batman (and, for me, Tynion's Batman, since I spent a lot more time from 2014 to 2016 immersed in Tynion's vision of Batman in Batman Eternal, Batman and Robin Eternal, and Batman #52). Batman felt "off" to me, and so reading backwards from #50, I think Batman was "off" because of Catwoman. I think Bruce WANTED to believe Selina was innocent, but because she was so adamant in proclaiming her guilt in the face of the death penalty, his confidence was shaken.

Maybe Batman wouldn't necessarily have asked Bane nicely to help with Gotham Girl, but I doubt he would have launched a full-out assault on the capital.

I don't think War of Jokes and Riddles is part of his plan, but given that Joker is one of Bane's pawns, I have no doubt he knew about the conclusion of it and that weak spot in Batman's psyche. Though since that was originally supposed to be an independent miniseries, I don't know how closely connected it was with King's longterm plot.

The Button - I think, SOMEHOW, Bane is responsible for Thomas Wayne. Or vice versa - Thomas Wayne is responsible for Bane. But given the revelation from Daniel, the former seems more likely.

I hope that King holds true to his promise that his run is about Batman and Catwoman's love, and not just about Bane's hate.

I'm also imagining how this will compare to Batman Eternal's martial law section - which frankly, much as I love Batman Eternal, was a bit too hastily done to really feel the impact. I'm curious to see how King sets it up and how long he keeps it in place.

I feel like because I'm so used to seeing new writers end up doing their own immediate direction once they take over a book, when it comes to something like this it's hard to tell which elements are him doing exactly that, or which are done intentionally as part of the overall plot. Doesn't ruin anything at all, just another way of looking at the overall execution, though now I do want to go back (again) and read I Am Gotham to see if I can see any other Catwoman allusions since last time I did read through, I just assumed she wasn't relevant until I Am Suicide.

I do think it makes much more sense that Bane found out about what happened during the War Of Jokes And Riddles after the fact, and then just recruited Joker & Riddler later on, since they have shown to get over their "I'm the only one who can kill Batman" they were so adamant about back during then.

I think something similar happened regarding The Button, that Bane didn't effect the events of that story, but then discovered the existence of Thomas Wayne and took advantage of that.

Yeah that's my big hope too, after all the manipulation and pain occurring, it'll all come back to their love being the centre of the story.

Its really interesting because this does seem like the premise of what would be the climax of the book, but its hard to see how it could last an entire year, so if anything that'll make the surprise whatever he pulls out after that even more exciting. Either way, the story sounds like it'll be a very fun time.

[Armor of God]

Bane taking over is something King hinted at all the way back in I am Bane, issues 18 and 20 weren't particularly subtle about pushing Bane as the Batman of crime.

[blunt_eastwood]

I was under the impression that Bane's actions were directly a response to Batman taking the Pirate from him. If not, what else would his motivation be? I apologize if this was answered in a prior post, but some of the responses were pretty long and I didn't read them all the way through.

[dietrich]

I think Batman is, at least since Year One (and O'Neil's stuff previously), foundationally sad and tragic (depressing is more a reader response, I think). I do think it's a bit frustrating that Grant Morrison is going around telling the next two major Batman writers to kill Batman off...but to be fair to Morrison, Dixon and O'Neil did Knightfall first, and that's still the model for a lot of Batman stories. Whatever happens, I hope that King puts his own twist on things!

In Morrison's defence he didn't go around telling them to kill off Batman. He expressed his views on an interview and a chat with Synder. What fanboys writers and copycats do with that opinion is up to them.

[Inversed]

I was under the impression that Bane's actions were directly a response to Batman taking the Pirate from him. If not, what else would his motivation be? I apologize if this was answered in a prior post, but some of the responses were pretty long and I didn't read them all the way through.

Yeah, that was my initial interpretation of what was going on with Bane too, it felt the most believable to me. After reading some others posts, I can also see how he had planned everything from the beginning, I just gotta wait and see how it all comes together in the end.

Also looks like the City of Bane arc is confirmed, this year's 25 cent issue will also act as a prelude to the story, though interestingly King isn't confirmed to write it at the moment.

https://www.cbr.com/dc-2019-year-of-...25-cent-comic/

[TheJudge95]

In this podcast http://wordballoon.blogspot.com/2018...rt-broken.html Tom King appears to suggest that Bane is taken out so easily in "I am Bane" on purpose (which honestly seems like a retcon to me), so it seems like the conspiracy has been going on at least since "I am Bane". I think there are too many coincidences for the conspiracy to have extended much earlier than that. Like, did Bane sell Gotham and Gotham Girl superpowers knowing that Hugo Strange and Psycho Pirate would escape from Amanda Waller's control and make Gotham and Gotham Girl crazy so that he could then have Batman form his own Suicide Squad with Catwoman (who he supposedly framed for murder by exploiting her relationship with her childhood friend) and come knocking? It makes more sense to me that Bane was genuinely trying to kick his Venom addiction and wanted revenge only after "I am Suicide", and that's when Holly, Joker, Riddler, Skeets, Ventriloquist, and Gotham Girl were brought in. But what makes even more sense is that there'll be some kind of switcheroo where Psycho Pirate or Thomas Wayne is the actual big bad and in reality Bane is dependent on Psycho Pirate like in "I am Suicide".