King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[David Walton]

Could you elaborate a bit on how Knightfall is Born Again for Batman? I know you mentioned how it created a pattern of "break Batman down and build him back up again" - is that what you mean?

Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of Born Again and Knightfall is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.

[millernumber1]

Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of Born Again and Knightfall is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.

Hmm. Interesting. I'm not completely convinced that's not just a fairly common storytelling pattern for a knight or heroic figure. But these chicken or egg narrative questions are likely not completely solveable

[David Walton]

Ah, I mean returning the character to a popular status quo; however, I get your point Bruce was at the end of Morrison's run but even he had to return Bruce back to the popular status quo.

King's Bruce has not shown any growth, he's always on the backfoot even though he has the qualities of Batgod Batman. Which is weird because King's Batman run is literally like night and day. Bruce is a broken hollow man, but his Batman is at his mythic height. Take for example the I am Suicide arc, Batman went through like 100 soldiers single handedly but Bruce himself is so fallible that he constantly asks Alfred for validation like in the Batman Secret Files issue: "Am I Enough?"

I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.

[charliehustle415]

I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.

I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.

[millernumber1]

I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.

It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.

[charliehustle415]

It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.

But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better

[Gotham citizen]

Anyone can become more mature through passing through various life events. It should not be read as "they were immature before" just because that happens. Batman being dependent on Alfred is less mature than him not depending on Alfred.

So you came back to my previous point:

[…]
if the Bruce Wayne of today need to become the mature man he already was during the golden, the silver and the bronze age, then I think something incredibly wrong happened with the modern Batman's writers.
[…]

I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.

It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.

[millernumber1]

But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better

I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.

[charliehustle415]

I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.

Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime

It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)

[millernumber1]

Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime

It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)

I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?

[charliehustle415]

I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?

I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure

[millernumber1]

I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure

I was just thinking of release date, I guess.

[Scott Taylor]

It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.

We're completely on the same page here. Its sad what has happened to the Bat, always living in the shadow of those two stories now and forever.

Were Miller and Moore the last two writers to actually make a significant mark on the Batman franchise? If so, then I'd be very careful what you wish for as far as King's lasting effects on the character. Would we really want to see him permanently reside on the "damaged" side of things?

[Gotham citizen]

In my opinion Miller and Moore made a significant mark on all the comic book industry, because since Watchmen, Dark Knight Return and Daredevil Born Again, every character suffer a periodically cycle of deconstruction by almost every new writer; with the difference they aren't Alan Moore or Frank Miller, so they can't reach the same result.

This video explain very well what I thought about "Miller and Moore mark"

[Vordan]

We're completely on the same page here. Its sad what has happened to the Bat, always living in the shadow of those two stories now and forever.

Were Miller and Moore the last two writers to actually make a significant mark on the Batman franchise? If so, then I'd be very careful what you wish for as far as King's lasting effects on the character. Would we really want to see him permanently reside on the "damaged" side of things?

Miller, Moore, and Morrison all shaped the modern Batman. Miller gave us a****** Batman who enjoys hurting people, Batman is his real ID with Bruce just being a mask, and has an antagonistic relationship with Supes. Moore gave us “One Bad Day” Joker and really pushed the idea of maybe Batman being as insane as his Rogues into the mainstream. Morrison gave us Batgod who always has a plan for everything and can beat anyone with prep time. All three did good work with the character, it’s their imitators who failed in their attempts to copy them that led to our current state.