King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[gregpersons]

Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.

When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.

I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end.

Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.

This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most especially that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?

I hate to post this on the day that such an emotionally rewarding issue came out but, being we're finally on the verge of the end, I've finally given up on the final 35 issues providing a satisfying solution to the many cliffhangers, some of which the story just sort of ignores ever having happened.

Every week when I pick up my new comics I talk with a LCS worker that's frustrated by the run. Every week since not too long after #50 he's exasperatedly said, "still no explanations." And every week I've said, "King's playing a long game. Just wait. All will be explained and it's gonna be great." It's a jovial exchange every week but after Dec. 18 I'm going to have to admit to him that I'd been wrong. I don't mind being wrong but I do mind being disappointed.

King had so many issues to give us satisfying explanations but in City of Bane he's using about 9 issues to give us about 3 issues worth of story. And the ultimate arc of the run, misleadingly titled "City of Bane" featured Bane only in small cameos. This feels like an awfully bad time to indulge in ultimate decompression. I don't typically mind decompression at all as long as the story is satisfying in the end. But, as with Heroes in Crisis (one of the poorer attempts to stick the landing in memory), I don't think there's any way the last two issues will allow a reader to cash the check King wrote back at the end of #50.

Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.

I feel largely the same. Somewhere around Knightmares, waiting to see the reveal of Bane and Thomas at the end of the Tyrant Wing, I went back to re-read Knightfall and Vengeance of Bane 1 & 2, and Bane of the Demon (thanks DCU app)... basically all of the Chuck Dixon version of Bane. It'd still wild how much story is packed into Knightfall in so few issues, how epic it feels across 25 or so issues, and how much clearer Bane is — even though, especially in Knightfall, his motivations aren't that much stronger than they are in King's run. Like, Knightfall Bane is more nuanced than Doomsday but not by much.

All that is to say, I loved the version of Bane we see in the early part of King's run, especially I Am Suicide, and it felt like such a smart evolution for the character. I just wish we'd have gotten more from him. An issue of Bane going around and recruiting the people from #50 — seeing it from Bane's perspective, instead of learning about it secondhand from Thomas to Bane, or the Lex(?) bot in COB part one — would have really helped.

It needs a "Letter from Bane" style issue, lol... something where we get a better understanding of what the hell this person wants, and why they're doing this incredibly elaborate endeavor. It's not impossible that won't come in the next issue, even though it seems like it'll need to be from Thomas's POV.

Edit: I guess that issue in the overall run would be the one from the "I Am Bane" conclusion, where we see the upbringings of Bruce and Bane mirroring each other. We saw in "War of Jokes and Riddles" that King isn't that interested in showing the logistics of supervillain team-ups and is fine to just hand-wave it and let you fill in the pieces, and I guess that's just how it is with "City of Bane" — the frustration being that both of those Gotham status quos are so unusual, that it feels incomplete without more context. The amount of plot-holes I have to be willing to ignore or fill in myself definitely makes me more forgiving of "TDK Rises".... the one thing I guess we know for sure about Bane is he wants to rule Gotham and he wants to break Batman's back. Why? Because life is a prison, and he is Bane, that's it.

I feel like King is Campbell, the QB from the Gotham Knights, and we're rooting for a late 4th quarter comeback but you can just smell a fumble coming. We'll see! I don't know. Based on the solitics, I'm not optimistic that Catwoman is sticking around as a life partner to Batman after the end of the run, but again who knows.

Regardless of how City of Bane ends up, I am still very optimistic about Bat/Cat knocking it out of the park.

[TheJudge95]

I agree with you BatmanJones but I always had the sense that Bane was going to be the fall guy. Of course, for marketing reasons, Tom King couldn't have come out and spoiled the twist that Thomas Wayne is the big bad, and Bane is a bigger sell than Flashpoint Batman, hence "City of Bane". I gave up on there being a thorough explanation of Bane's conspiracy after the issue you're referring to (#72). It was more of a recap of the run up to that point and less an explanation of Bane's seemingly clairvoyant manipulation of events. I chalked it up to a comic-booky tribute to Bane's vaunted brains, but then in #81 and #82 Batman outmaneuvered Bane so thoroughly that it made Bane's schemes lesser in hindsight. Like, Batman replacing Joker with Clayface - when did he figure out that Joker was part of Bane's cabal? Was he really unstable when he punched Tim or was he always in control and using some weird code? I think the cliffhanger of #50 was an attempt to tie the run together in a way that it wasn't meant to be tied together and King is taking the easy explanation of "they're all brainwashed" (though it does make sense). It would have made more sense if only Bane, Flashpoint Batman, Ventriloquist, Gotham Girl, Psycho Pirate, and Skeets were there, but he included Joker and Riddler too just to tie in War of Jokes and Riddles even though Riddler doesn't really factor into the overall plan (Joker manipulated Catwoman in The Best Man). Overall, I'm fine with the lack of explanations, though it does make my previous theory-crafting futile in retrospect, because the real meat of the story is Batman vs. Thomas Wayne and Bane was (unfortunately) used as a plot device to get there.

[millernumber1]

Wow, awesome day of conversation today! To match an awesome issue!

I didn't hate this issue by any means, but it's definitely, for me, the issue which most exemplifies the seams in whatever the heck happened to King's run (moving to Bat/Cat, Tony Daniels needing lead time to draw . . . parts of three issues). Bruce said he sent Damian in because Alfred wasn't there to be a hostage, then Alfred stayed to be the hostage, too? Bruce and Thomas have recovered from the beatings in issue 81 and 82 already. Gotham Girl has been neutralized, but the JLA doesn't know?

Alfred's message to Bruce was lovely, and it tied into the opening arc in a way I didn't see coming. Given that everyone else is under Psycho Pirate's thrall, we'll get the Thomas/Bruce re-match we've all been expecting, and hopefully some answers about his existence (however, given that GG was supposed to have been cured by Pirate during I Am Bane, it'll be interesting to see how the bat-family all becomes un-thralled).

This issue was really powerful to me. I'm normally REALLY against Alfred calling Bruce "son" - see my comments about Batman #49 by Snyder or All Star Batman: The First Ally - but this felt like it was built up to, rather than lazily slipped in, and it profoundly moved me.

I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!

On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!

I think we need a whole miniseries about Stephanie Brown infiltrating the city, though

Facts in evidence?

I advocate for ignoring the trolls.

I don't like that Alfred is gone, but I do like how it was handled as far as Bruce's reaction. Sometimes I feel Janin's art feels too stiff, but he nailed it beautifully. It was interesting to see just how different the two father figures in Bruce's life were. Alfred the supporting father and Thomas the controlling father. (Thomas takes controlling to a whole new level.) I look forward to the next issue to finally learn how and why Thomas is here. He is a sick person trying to get Bruce to fit the mold about how his life should be.

The whole issue was a really powerful look at fathers and sons in Batman's life, and what it means to be a father.

Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred

I liked this issue because I think it was necessary to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just do that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)

I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room

I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpassed the bad by a very fair margin

I loved the connection to the Annual "Every Day" with Bruce's final statement to Thomas. And I hope this issue will stand up as a really good "Batman grieves" issue in years to come.

Hahaha yes that's clearly the course!

The Thomas Wayne resurgence is interesting. Besides these three runs, there's also the Joker movie, the Telltale games, and Batman Damned. I think this parallel thinking among the writers is reflective of the era, as our view of the 1% has darkened, there's an instinct to address Bruce's blue-blood lineage in a way that frames it as something monstrous that he must overcome.

And I think, though I have really enjoyed King's run overall with the Bat-Cat focus, I am least compelled by the Thomas storyline — although, the next issue could change that with some great reveal of his deeper motivations. I'm still in a "wait and see" with how City Of Bane concludes in the next two issues.

5. King — I think the incorporation of Flashpoint Batman and then making him integral to the larger run is an example of the writer's reach exceeding their grasp. It still seems, 25+ issues later, like the overall run would've been better had Thomas's plot points been just given to Bane instead.

Very interesting thoughts. I actually really like the substitution - I'm not really sure how much more King could have said about Batman and Bane than he said in the first 50 issues. Thomas adds thematic depth that I just don't think you could get with Bane.

Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.

When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.

I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end.

Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.

This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most especially that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?

I hate to post this on the day that such an emotionally rewarding issue came out but, being we're finally on the verge of the end, I've finally given up on the final 35 issues providing a satisfying solution to the many cliffhangers, some of which the story just sort of ignores ever having happened.

Every week when I pick up my new comics I talk with a LCS worker that's frustrated by the run. Every week since not too long after #50 he's exasperatedly said, "still no explanations." And every week I've said, "King's playing a long game. Just wait. All will be explained and it's gonna be great." It's a jovial exchange every week but after Dec. 18 I'm going to have to admit to him that I'd been wrong. I don't mind being wrong but I do mind being disappointed.

King had so many issues to give us satisfying explanations but in City of Bane he's using about 9 issues to give us about 3 issues worth of story. And the ultimate arc of the run, misleadingly titled "City of Bane" featured Bane only in small cameos. This feels like an awfully bad time to indulge in ultimate decompression. I don't typically mind decompression at all as long as the story is satisfying in the end. But, as with Heroes in Crisis (one of the poorer attempts to stick the landing in memory), I don't think there's any way the last two issues will allow a reader to cash the check King wrote back at the end of #50.

Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.

It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.

None of the above is to say I didn't enjoy Batman #83. I think it's one of the best issues of Batman of all time.

A bold claim! I'll have to sit with it for a bit longer, but it's definitely up there, but not really in the "top ten issues of the run" yet. I guess we'll have to do another ranking with our rereading!

[Katana500]

Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.

[charliehustle415]

Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.

That's what I'm thinking, but next issue will explain it (hopefully)

[bob.schoonover]

Why were all the batfamily just standing in a line. Are they supposed to have been Psycho pirated.

After Bruce passed out in 82, Thomas said something like "Let's get the Pirate and end this." I'm pretty sure Catwoman and all seven of the invading party are under his thrall.

Have I missed any reference to Gotham Girl, or should we assume she's still warded off by Damian's spell?

[Coco Loco]

After Bruce passed out in 82, Thomas said something like "Let's get the Pirate and end this." I'm pretty sure Catwoman and all seven of the invading party are under his thrall.

Have I missed any reference to Gotham Girl, or should we assume she's still warded off by Damian's spell?

She was ill when we last saw her (one of the JrJr issues), and was being tended to by Thomas at Wayne Manor.

[charliehustle415]

It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.

I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman).

At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.

Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:

1st Morrison
2nd King
3rd Snyder

[bob.schoonover]

Nice catch for the Calendar Man callback



I agree with what you're saying and a lot of the plot feels like whiplash, on top of Bane's and Batman's convoluted plans and the Bane fake-out. But I think Alfred was supposed to escape (with Clayface or Ventriloquist) but for some reason was unable to, and sent the signal anyway for Damian to move in and sacrificed himself so that the plan could work.

To expand a bit, if the plan was to have a hostage that could get free and let everyone else in, I'm not sure why Alfred couldn't have done that himself. I think the logic would be that they also needed Damian to take Claire off the board, but I think this is one of those seams that shows when they change the story (both plot elements and pacing) on the writer.

Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.

When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.

I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end.

SNIP (so my post isn't 1000 pages long)

Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.

I'm basically here (I still prefer Morrison, but this is a great examination of Batman). I voiced displeasure with whichever issue of Fall and the Fallen was Thomas explaining Bane's plan to him because it was all too neat. Thomas deduced all sorts of insane stuff Bane must have done, and we're all just expected to go "oh, it was probably pretty easy for the Riddler to get ahold of Skeets and reprogram him."

I think Heroes in Crisis is causing me to pre-judge how I think the last two issues will go. I enjoyed each of the first seven issues of that mini on their own, but thought the story was moving pretty slowly. Then issue eight was a fatally flawed recap of what really happened and nine was just ...not good. Yeah, I'm dreading #84 being Thomas monologuing to Bruce a story that is unbelievable even for DC (a monologue issue isn't the problem - it's the presumption of inanity).

As a side note, had they called it Batman vs Bane, I think the Thomas betrayal would have been a little more cute than the basically misleading City of Bane title. Maybe that made more sense when they were going to do tie-in stuff?

SNIP

All that is to say, I loved the version of Bane we see in the early part of King's run, especially I Am Suicide, and it felt like such a smart evolution for the character. I just wish we'd have gotten more from him. An issue of Bane going around and recruiting the people from #50 — seeing it from Bane's perspective, instead of learning about it secondhand from Thomas to Bane, or the Lex(?) bot in COB part one — would have really helped.

It needs a "Letter from Bane" style issue, lol... something where we get a better understanding of what the hell this person wants, and why they're doing this incredibly elaborate endeavor. It's not impossible that won't come in the next issue, even though it seems like it'll need to be from Thomas's POV.

Edit: I guess that issue in the overall run would be the one from the "I Am Bane" conclusion, where we see the upbringings of Bruce and Bane mirroring each other. We saw in "War of Jokes and Riddles" that King isn't that interested in showing the logistics of supervillain team-ups and is fine to just hand-wave it and let you fill in the pieces, and I guess that's just how it is with "City of Bane" — the frustration being that both of those Gotham status quos are so unusual, that it feels incomplete without more context. The amount of plot-holes I have to be willing to ignore or fill in myself definitely makes me more forgiving of "TDK Rises".... the one thing I guess we know for sure about Bane is he wants to rule Gotham and he wants to break Batman's back. Why? Because life is a prison, and he is Bane, that's it.

I feel like King is Campbell, the QB from the Gotham Knights, and we're rooting for a late 4th quarter comeback but you can just smell a fumble coming. We'll see! I don't know. Based on the solitics, I'm not optimistic that Catwoman is sticking around as a life partner to Batman after the end of the run, but again who knows.

Regardless of how City of Bane ends up, I am still very optimistic about Bat/Cat knocking it out of the park.

I think we lost the thread of Bane wanting Psycho Pirate to just make him happy/content with the #50 reveal, which is a bit unfortunate. That was a great bit of characterization - it made I Am Suicide and I Am Bane really hum as something different than Knightfall Redux (which is essentially what Fall and the Fallen and City of Bane became from Bane's POV).

I hope King isn't Campbell (or, he is, and in #85 we find out Campbell is leading the team to the Super Bowl finally) - I think it's more likely than not that I find the last two issues mildly disappointing, but not enough to tarnish my feeling about the run (so he's more like Kirk Cousins or Phillip Rivers before this season?).

As to Selina - I don't know. My guess is DC would prefer them to remain unmarried and DC is in charge, but it'd be such a downer ending (not unlike Morrison's in Batman, Inc) if we spent three+ years seeing Bruce try to prove that he can be Batman and be somewhat happy and have her bail to show us that he can't. Part of me kind of hopes DC makes Bat/Cat non-canon just so King can give us a happy-ish ending.

It's interesting that so many readers, even positively inclined readers, are feeling there's a lot of holes or things left unexplained. For some reason, these things aren't really bothering me - I honestly don't really have a problem with "how did Flashpoint Batman get to our universe" when Skeets is working with Bane. I'll look forward to the next issue to find Thomas's motivations, but I'm mostly satisfied with how the run is turning out.

A bold claim! I'll have to sit with it for a bit longer, but it's definitely up there, but not really in the "top ten issues of the run" yet. I guess we'll have to do another ranking with our rereading!

I think I'd feel less bothered by the plot holes if, as BatmanJones said, the cliffhangers weren't so compelling. HiC had some huge plot holes that infuriated me as I read it (I'm sure I posted them in an appropriate thread), but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them anymore because the story just didn't catch or captivate me.

We're going to have a lot of time, it seems, after Batman #85 to talk about this run as a whole. I'm not going to say if #83 would be in my top ten yet, but it was certainly an engaging and well-drawn issue, even if I don't love its fit within the rest of the run.

She was ill when we last saw her (one of the JrJr issues), and was being tended to by Thomas at Wayne Manor.

Thanks!

I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman).

At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.

Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:

1st Morrison
2nd King
3rd Snyder

#85 is listed as 48 pages, so that's presumably 50 total pages for the last two parts. Hopefully that's enough space to stick the landing.

As a side note, I didn't think either Tomasi or Jurgens really used their one-shots to full effect to cap off their runs. They probably had less notice than King did about the shortening of their runs, to be fair to them, but I'm not sure a special in January would have alleviated much.

I agree with your order. Morrison's run (I have the omnibuses and am impatiently waiting for v3) is so much fun to re-read both in pieces and in full. RIP just rocks. So does B&R, ROBW, the League of Batmen 3-parter, etc.

------------------------

One last question for the peanut gallery - do we think the call Bruce made in #50 was related to the Joker/Clayface substitution?

[millernumber1]

I think it has to do with how many issues are left, if we had another arc or even a One-Shot to wrap everything up it wouldn't really matter. However, we only have about 40ish pages left, which makes me think it will be a hurried finale to a stellar run and the gem of the Rebirth era (the other being Tomasi's Superman).

At least when Tomasi & Jurgen's were pushed off their titles they had One-Shots to give them extra pages to put a bow on everything.

Nevertheless, with the 3 last major runs: Morrison, Snyder, and now King. I can comfortably rank them like this:

1st Morrison
2nd King
3rd Snyder

I personally feel that though this is a conclusion, it's not the wrapup. And though Bat/Cat will hopefully more or less stand on its own, I think it also will function as the overall ending of King's Batman run - so I don't really view 85 as the end, just a transition point.

For me, the rankings of the last three Batman runs are definitely King, Morrison, Snyder. And the standout runs of Rebirth have been Rucka's Wonder Woman, Priest's Deathstroke, Tynion's Detective, and King's Batman. We'll have to see how Bat/Cat ends for my final ranking, though - whether I view it as a masterful whole, or a disappointment with moments of intense greatness.

I think I'd feel less bothered by the plot holes if, as BatmanJones said, the cliffhangers weren't so compelling. HiC had some huge plot holes that infuriated me as I read it (I'm sure I posted them in an appropriate thread), but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them anymore because the story just didn't catch or captivate me.

We're going to have a lot of time, it seems, after Batman #85 to talk about this run as a whole. I'm not going to say if #83 would be in my top ten yet, but it was certainly an engaging and well-drawn issue, even if I don't love its fit within the rest of the run.

One last question for the peanut gallery - do we think the call Bruce made in #50 was related to the Joker/Clayface substitution?

I don't recall the phone call in #50. We'll have to check that out in the reread!

You make an excellent point that we care more about flaws in things we're engaged in, less so in things we overall don't like.

[Inversed]

For me, I liked the direction they took with the Bane and Thomas swap, just because in both #50 and #72, the reveals just made Bane seem way too "omnipresent", and even seemed to contradict his motivations and actions in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. We'll get a fully confirmation next issue, but having Thomas as the manipulator, making him believe all of this is his own plans, not only makes more sense how everything could be brought together as much as it was, but also fits much more in with Thomas' motivations.

I know alot of people don't like that in "City Of Bane" that Bane was barely in it, but again, just like another poster mentioned, that's kind of the point. You're meant to believe it's "Bane's city", even though reading you see Thomas is the one actually doing everything, before in the end it's finally revealed why.

I also don't really consider this as the full "ending" to his run per se. While #85 is meant to act as a sense of conclusion, and Bat/Cat #1-12 will be able to stand on its own, ultimately they are a part of one continuous story. So given how the past issues have turned out, while I wouldn't be surprised if #85 ends up feeling a bit more rushed than it probably should've, we'll still have another 12 issues of narrative to conclude and pay-off any of the remaining thematic points.

Kind of like how even though Snyder's run ended with #52, technically still continued on through All-Star Batman, Metal, Batman Who Laughs, and Last Knight On Earth, which is all part of his overall story. (And how Morrison went from Batman to Batman & Robin to Batman Incorporated)

[charliehustle415]

I personally feel that though this is a conclusion, it's not the wrapup. And though Bat/Cat will hopefully more or less stand on its own, I think it also will function as the overall ending of King's Batman run - so I don't really view 85 as the end, just a transition point.

I also don't really consider this as the full "ending" to his run per se. While #85 is meant to act as a sense of conclusion, and Bat/Cat #1-12 will be able to stand on its own, ultimately they are a part of one continuous story. So given how the past issues have turned out, while I wouldn't be surprised if #85 ends up feeling a bit more rushed than it probably should've, we'll still have another 12 issues of narrative to conclude and pay-off any of the remaining thematic points.

Kind of like how even though Snyder's run ended with #52, technically still continued on through All-Star Batman, Metal, Batman Who Laughs, and Last Knight On Earth, which is all part of his overall story. (And how Morrison went from Batman to Batman & Robin to Batman Incorporated)

I agree it's not the end But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion.

I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me.

But this is the nature of the medium.

[millernumber1]

I agree it's not the end But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion.

I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me.

But this is the nature of the medium.

You could, but Snyder clearly hinted in #51 at what was to come in Metal (though whether he delivered on that hint is another question). Snyder and King write very differently, though. Snyder writes in chunks, building on themes, but not necessarily having a strong through-line between all of his arcs. King tries to think of his runs as one whole - which is why I don't really draw a distinction between Batman and Bat/Cat at this time.

[Inversed]

I agree it's not the end But Snyder's run was wholly finished by issue 52 you could have stopped reading and it would feel like a conclusion.

I guess for me I would like a ending that answers everything within said title; of course I may be talking out of my butt because we still have two issues left, but to leave dangling threads for another title seems bad form to me.

But this is the nature of the medium.

I do think, at the absolute least, #85 will conclude majority of the main plot points and threads that have been laid throughout the book, but Bat/Cat is where the thematic and emotional ending (Bruce and Selina's relationship and Batman's true purpose) of the run will occur. Which is probably the best and most appropriate way to handle it.

You could, but Snyder clearly hinted in #51 at what was to come in Metal (though whether he delivered on that hint is another question). Snyder and King write very differently, though. Snyder writes in chunks, building on themes, but not necessarily having a strong through-line between all of his arcs. King tries to think of his runs as one whole - which is why I don't really draw a distinction between Batman and Bat/Cat at this time.

I've said this before in how I've looked into Morrison, Snyder, and King's runs are structured, how they handle their expanded narratives.

Morrison's run is one story split into 5 acts:
Batman And Son > Batman R.I.P. > Batman And Robin > The Return Of Bruce Wayne > Batman Incorporated

Snyder's is 10 core storylines that are interconnected through a larger narrative (with all of his other series acting as adjacent stories towards these main ones):
The Black Mirror > The Court Of Owls > Death Of The Family > Zero Year > Endgame > Superheavy > All-Star Batman > Metal > The Batman Who Laughs > Last Knight On Earth

King's is 1 large 100-issue ongoing plot which is connected through its chapters and stories of various sizes that come together to fit a thematic point.

Also in comparison to the three, I've found that King's bigger arcs are much less standalone than Morrison or Snyder's are, but King's one-shots and short stories can be seen as more standalone than the two's.

[gregpersons]

For me, I liked the direction they took with the Bane and Thomas swap, just because in both #50 and #72, the reveals just made Bane seem way too "omnipresent", and even seemed to contradict his motivations and actions in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. We'll get a fully confirmation next issue, but having Thomas as the manipulator, making him believe all of this is his own plans, not only makes more sense how everything could be brought together as much as it was, but also fits much more in with Thomas' motivations.

I know alot of people don't like that in "City Of Bane" that Bane was barely in it, but again, just like another poster mentioned, that's kind of the point. You're meant to believe it's "Bane's city", even though reading you see Thomas is the one actually doing everything, before in the end it's finally revealed why.

I definitely appreciate this perspective but, like... WHAT are Thomas's motivations, though? They don't seem to add up, to me. Like, I get that he doesn't want Bruce to be Batman, but why and to what end? It's initially presented as — "Don't be Batman. Be happy." — but all of his machinations from #50 onward have been to break Bruce's spirit. So... what is the goal? Make him so miserable so he'll be happy?? Huh??

It's odd, too, because the issue of "The Button" in which Thomas says "Don't be Batman" — that issue isn't even scripted by King! It's so strange for that crossover to arc to cast such a long shadow over the run.