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  1. #1861
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Miller, Moore, and Morrison all shaped the modern Batman. Miller gave us a****** Batman who enjoys hurting people, Batman is his real ID with Bruce just being a mask, and has an antagonistic relationship with Supes. Moore gave us “One Bad Day” Joker and really pushed the idea of maybe Batman being as insane as his Rogues into the mainstream. Morrison gave us Batgod who always has a plan for everything and can beat anyone with prep time. All three did good work with the character, it’s their imitators who failed in their attempts to copy them that led to our current state.
    We've ventured a bit far afield of the discussion of King's run here. Anyone have some connections they want to draw out between King's run and Miller, Moore, Morrison, Snyder, Dixon, etc? I know King has said that Miller's DKR is the piece he always tries to reach and fails - but I'm curious if anyone can see how that fits, as I have difficulty seeing the connection.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  2. #1862

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    We've ventured a bit far afield of the discussion of King's run here. Anyone have some connections they want to draw out between King's run and Miller, Moore, Morrison, Snyder, Dixon, etc? I know King has said that Miller's DKR is the piece he always tries to reach and fails - but I'm curious if anyone can see how that fits, as I have difficulty seeing the connection.
    I suppose the connection is what are the things that stick to the Batman Mythos.

    For me the one thing I wish that sticks that King reintroduces is the fact all the villains know one another and have had a long relationship; for example, Joker & Catwoman having a discussion in the church. King makes Gotham lived in and you can imagine the rogues are doing things that we are unaware of, I know Tynion spoke about Gotham and its effect on the heroes and villains.

  3. #1863
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I have a more optimistic look on the Batman franchise. One of the things I like the most about Tom King's Batman is that he plays in a in-narrative way but also in a meta kind of way with the stories that came before his run.

    The discussion between Bruce and Selina about where they met each other for the first time works alongside the story King is building and where he wants to take both characters, as the interlude in City of Bane proves, but it also creates a dialogue between Year One and the first Catwoman story. This is one example, but there are more that show how he's making, in a similar though more poetic way than Morrison (which doesn't mean "better"), every story in the Batman mythos relevant and part of an everlasting continuity.

    I know that some people like a more defined continuity, but I prefer that any aspect of the Batman mythos is at the hand of the writer to use if (s)he wants to. I don't think the Bat-franchise is stuck forever under the shadow of Knightfall and DKR and that most stories have been a repetitive cycle of breaking the Bat to make him come back better, at least not in a deep level. They might see similar from distance, but they have give me pretty different and interesting reading experiences. I have been a pretty happy Batman fan with the leadership of the franchise passing from Morrison, to Snyder/Capullo, to King, with so many great stories by other teams in between
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

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  4. #1864
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I suppose the connection is what are the things that stick to the Batman Mythos.

    For me the one thing I wish that sticks that King reintroduces is the fact all the villains know one another and have had a long relationship; for example, Joker & Catwoman having a discussion in the church. King makes Gotham lived in and you can imagine the rogues are doing things that we are unaware of, I know Tynion spoke about Gotham and its effect on the heroes and villains.
    I do love the sense King gives you that these people know each other outside of "work," or off panel land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I have a more optimistic look on the Batman franchise. One of the things I like the most about Tom King's Batman is that he plays in a in-narrative way but also in a meta kind of way with the stories that came before his run.

    The discussion between Bruce and Selina about where they met each other for the first time works alongside the story King is building and where he wants to take both characters, as the interlude in City of Bane proves, but it also creates a dialogue between Year One and the first Catwoman story. This is one example, but there are more that show how he's making, in a similar though more poetic way than Morrison (which doesn't mean "better"), every story in the Batman mythos relevant and part of an everlasting continuity.

    I know that some people like a more defined continuity, but I prefer that any aspect of the Batman mythos is at the hand of the writer to use if (s)he wants to. I don't think the Bat-franchise is stuck forever under the shadow of Knightfall and DKR and that most stories have been a repetitive cycle of breaking the Bat to make him come back better, at least not in a deep level. They might see similar from distance, but they have give me pretty different and interesting reading experiences. I have been a pretty happy Batman fan with the leadership of the franchise passing from Morrison, to Snyder/Capullo, to King, with so many great stories by other teams in between
    I also love the meta and in-universe duality King likes to play with. I don't mind the cycles we've gotten, even if Morrison and Snyder aren't really to my taste. I think it's cool to have these landmark 4-5 year runs that form "periods" that shape fandom for a time.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #1865

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I do love the sense King gives you that these people know each other outside of "work," or off panel land.



    I also love the meta and in-universe duality King likes to play with. I don't mind the cycles we've gotten, even if Morrison and Snyder aren't really to my taste. I think it's cool to have these landmark 4-5 year runs that form "periods" that shape fandom for a time.
    Absolutely, for me; my favorite periods are Knightfall, No Man's Land, and Batman & Son (basically all of Morrison's stuff). For me this is the perfect trilogy of Batman stories. If I was on a desert island these are the only Batman books I would need.

    But the great thing about King's run is that it would make an amazing forth book because he builds on these three periods the most. Snyder's New 52 run is a basically a giant bottle episode (stand alone story)

  6. #1866
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Batman was retired at the beginning of DKR. He had to make a long journey back against terrible odds, at age 55. He fought a gang leader (one defeat followed by a gutsy victory) and then had a similar fight against the establishment (represented by Superman, who defeated him, and then the grave, which Batman defeated).

    I see parallels to the King run, in that Batman has been undergoing the same cycle of being defeated and rising again afterwards. Its definitely a pattern we have seen over and over in King's run and also appears to be the overarching saga at work here.

    Morrison and Snyder fit the same pattern. Arguably not Moore, because we really don't know what to make of the ending of Killing Joke.
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  7. #1867
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Absolutely, for me; my favorite periods are Knightfall, No Man's Land, and Batman & Son (basically all of Morrison's stuff). For me this is the perfect trilogy of Batman stories. If I was on a desert island these are the only Batman books I would need.

    But the great thing about King's run is that it would make an amazing forth book because he builds on these three periods the most. Snyder's New 52 run is a basically a giant bottle episode (stand alone story)
    I don't know if I have a favorite long period of Batman. Batman Reborn, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons, is my favorite discrete era (I'm counting 2009-2011 as Batman Reborn). I do like Knightfall, NML, and several other periods, but none of them have had the same weight. But never before has a Batman run, as opposed to the overall line, been the heart of my love for a period as Tom King's run (though for the first two years he'd have to split that with James Tynion).

    It is very true that King builds heavily on Knightfall and Morrison - but I would argue that he builds in contrast to Snyder. Whereas for Snyder, Batman is an unchangable force of nature who can never truly live (love, change, grow), King's Batman is almost infinitely malleable and vulnerable as well as being unyeildingly committed to living each day to save others. For Snyder, Bruce is so mythic as to be almost impossibly unique - so unique that only a clone of Bruce is "worthy" of Batman. For King, Bruce is us - and his own father isn't the same thing. Batman is the choices he makes, not the DNA he bears. (Very Batman Begins, you might say - not coincidentally, my favorite of all Batman films).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Batman was retired at the beginning of DKR. He had to make a long journey back against terrible odds, at age 55. He fought a gang leader (one defeat followed by a gutsy victory) and then had a similar fight against the establishment (represented by Superman, who defeated him, and then the grave, which Batman defeated).

    I see parallels to the King run, in that Batman has been undergoing the same cycle of being defeated and rising again afterwards. Its definitely a pattern we have seen over and over in King's run and also appears to be the overarching saga at work here.

    Morrison and Snyder fit the same pattern. Arguably not Moore, because we really don't know what to make of the ending of Killing Joke.
    Knightfall, in ways both surface (all the TV commentary - what Miller derisively said were "all the talking heads they copied") and profound - contrasting himself with foils and mirrors, deep connections to the pulp hardboiled detective tradition - was very much building on the foundation of DKR, and King is building on both as foundations. I think the basic idea of a hero taking a dark journey to the underworld and coming out wiser isn't really that unique to DKR - DKR just perhaps did it better than almost any (though as I think I've said here before, I don't actually like DKR very much).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  8. #1868

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't know if I have a favorite long period of Batman. Batman Reborn, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons, is my favorite discrete era (I'm counting 2009-2011 as Batman Reborn). I do like Knightfall, NML, and several other periods, but none of them have had the same weight. But never before has a Batman run, as opposed to the overall line, been the heart of my love for a period as Tom King's run (though for the first two years he'd have to split that with James Tynion).

    It is very true that King builds heavily on Knightfall and Morrison - but I would argue that he builds in contrast to Snyder. Whereas for Snyder, Batman is an unchangable force of nature who can never truly live (love, change, grow), King's Batman is almost infinitely malleable and vulnerable as well as being unyeildingly committed to living each day to save others. For Snyder, Bruce is so mythic as to be almost impossibly unique - so unique that only a clone of Bruce is "worthy" of Batman. For King, Bruce is us - and his own father isn't the same thing. Batman is the choices he makes, not the DNA he bears. (Very Batman Begins, you might say - not coincidentally, my favorite of all Batman films).



    Knightfall, in ways both surface (all the TV commentary - what Miller derisively said were "all the talking heads they copied") and profound - contrasting himself with foils and mirrors, deep connections to the pulp hardboiled detective tradition - was very much building on the foundation of DKR, and King is building on both as foundations. I think the basic idea of a hero taking a dark journey to the underworld and coming out wiser isn't really that unique to DKR - DKR just perhaps did it better than almost any (though as I think I've said here before, I don't actually like DKR very much).
    Damn, I never thought about Batman's "worthiness" now I have to reread it again

  9. #1869
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Damn, I never thought about Batman's "worthiness" now I have to reread it again
    Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  10. #1870

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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.
    Makes me wish King had used Dick more; since to me he is the only one has ever been worthy to be Batman.

    I think I just miss Grayson, what an amazing book

  11. #1871
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.
    As someone who feels about Bruce the way you do Steph, this fills my heart with joy lol. Bruce’s character study is the peak of this run and it far outweighs the smattering lows.

    OT: Begrudgingly becoming more interested in Tynion’s run the more I see from it. Damn you, Jiménez!

  12. #1872
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    As someone who feels about Bruce the way you do Steph, this fills my heart with joy lol. Bruce’s character study is the peak of this run and it far outweighs the smattering lows.

    OT: Begrudgingly becoming more interested in Tynion’s run the more I see from it. Damn you, Jiménez!
    Hooray! I do like being able to love more characters. And King has really brought Bruce into my circle of beloved characters.

    Also, I'm very excited about seeing Guillem March and Jorge Jimenez's art with Tynion's writing!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  13. #1873
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, I wasn't arguing that cycles are a bad thing, or that King's run can only be judged by whether he makes lasting changes to Batman's characterization.

    I'd say the Batman line has been consistently great for the past thirty years. The quality is astounding.

  14. #1874
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha, I think a LOT about Batman's Worthiness. Before King, I would have said Bruce is not really very worthy. After King...I love Bruce.
    Interesting. I think Bruce is a heroic, inherently decent human being even in his more obsessive incarnations (in the mainstream books, I mean, not alternate realities). I've never seen him as being unworthy of his heroic mantle.

  15. #1875
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Interesting. I think Bruce is a heroic, inherently decent human being even in his more obsessive incarnations (in the mainstream books, I mean, not alternate realities). I've never seen him as being unworthy of his heroic mantle.
    If you look at a lot of the writers who were formative when I first got into comics - namely Rucka, Brubaker, Gabrych, Winick, and a few others - they really leaned on how dysfunctional Bruce was in his personal relationships. I like the Bruce Wayne: Murderer crossover, but that Bruce was almost maniacally dedicated to pushing people away. And since I am primarily a Batfamily fan, that doesn't exactly endear me to Bruce as a character. I think what's different to me about King's run is that I start to understand why Bruce makes those destructive choices from the inside, and feel what he's feeling.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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