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  1. #1936
    Fantastic Member ermac's Avatar
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    I started hating his run. I couldn't get King's writing at first and would roll my eyes with stuff like Batman holding an airplane, Selina beating Flash or Thomas beating the whole batfamily single handed.

    After the revelation of Bane's plan, I became intrigued by it. The War of Jokes and Riddles was an amazing arc. And the issues with Superman and Wonderman were definitely very well written.

    The wedding thing was lukewarm, but I still appreciated King's writing. The church issue, the fallout of the wedding and the desert issues were all very well done. I wasn't part of the hating of his run.

    After knightmares I grew a little annoyed with King's tropes and the pacing of the run. Too much important stuff happening off panel... Too much poetry being shoehorned into the dialogue... Selina being too perfect... Thomas being too genius... Bat/cat being too repetitive...

    Now, I end his run feeling a little sad, because I think it could have been one of the greatest of all time. I really wish the editors had changed some of the artistic decisions that spoiled the fun for me. And I'm still intrigued by how the decision to cut short his run came to be.

  2. #1937
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    I started hating his run. I couldn't get King's writing at first and would roll my eyes with stuff like Batman holding an airplane, Selina beating Flash or Thomas beating the whole batfamily single handed.

    After the revelation of Bane's plan, I became intrigued by it. The War of Jokes and Riddles was an amazing arc. And the issues with Superman and Wonderman were definitely very well written.

    The wedding thing was lukewarm, but I still appreciated King's writing. The church issue, the fallout of the wedding and the desert issues were all very well done. I wasn't part of the hating of his run.

    After knightmares I grew a little annoyed with King's tropes and the pacing of the run. Too much important stuff happening off panel... Too much poetry being shoehorned into the dialogue... Selina being too perfect... Thomas being too genius... Bat/cat being too repetitive...

    Now, I end his run feeling a little sad, because I think it could have been one of the greatest of all time. I really wish the editors had changed some of the artistic decisions that spoiled the fun for me. And I'm still intrigued by how the decision to cut short his run came to be.
    This interview, released today, has a bit more of a detailed account from King about why his run was changed from 100/105 to 85 + 12. (Though as we did the math a few weeks ago, he IS doing 100 issues, counting specials, Annuals, etc.)

    I actually started out really not feeling King's run too - and I largely put that down, in universe, to the fact that Bruce is MASSIVELY unsettled because he just had to put Selina in jail under a death sentence. But of course, I didn't know that until after the Wedding. I still actually don't love the bulk of the pre-50 issues - it's post-50 that I really fell in love with the run. #85 did have to grow on me - hopefully, as we reread it, it will speak more to us.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  3. #1938
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    Can’t believe these two got so horny they forgot to get married.

  4. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    This interview, released today, has a bit more of a detailed account from King about why his run was changed from 100/105 to 85 + 12. (Though as we did the math a few weeks ago, he IS doing 100 issues, counting specials, Annuals, etc.)

    I actually started out really not feeling King's run too - and I largely put that down, in universe, to the fact that Bruce is MASSIVELY unsettled because he just had to put Selina in jail under a death sentence. But of course, I didn't know that until after the Wedding. I still actually don't love the bulk of the pre-50 issues - it's post-50 that I really fell in love with the run. #85 did have to grow on me - hopefully, as we reread it, it will speak more to us.
    What interview?


    Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.

  5. #1940
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    What interview?


    Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.
    Whoops, here is the link: http://11oclockcomics.com/2019/12/18...s-episode-643/
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  6. #1941
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    I liked it. I called Claire getting the platinum kryptonite, although I was wrong about the Nain Pit. Catwoman being the key to Bruce's plan to defeat the villains was something I'd suggested months ago, and that was mostly right. I was way wrong about a number of things, of course (although I'd love to have King let us know how he was going to undo Alfred's death originally). I figured the "we're married in spirit" was a possible outcome, but didn't feel strongly about it. Thomas not being definitively dead seems . . . wrong. Even if he wasn't part of Manhattan's plot, put all the toys back in the box - we don't need a lesser writer coming in and giving us a worse Thomas vs Bruce story down the road (c.f. Hush Returns)

    I have to say, and this is broadly about expectation setting, calling this arc City of Bane really seemed a misfire. I enjoyed the story from Fall and the Fallen to the end, and probably will enjoy it more upon the great re-read of 2020, but Bane was such a trivial part of it and I imagined we'd see more of him. Bane didn't really have a character arc from 50 on that matched what was teased in I Am Suicide - that he actually wanted Psycho Pirate for a reason - and I refuse to believe that was all an act in furtherance of his omniscient plot to break Batman. I don't know what all got dropped in the shuffle to put Tynion on the book (big whatever from me there - oh, look, someone else telling their great Joker story that'll be bigger than all the ones before it), but I'd be curious if Bane and his rule over the city (especially the Riddler/Joker buddy cop stuff) wasn't the biggest casualty
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  7. #1942
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Btw I peaked at re-reading Batman Rebirth #1 and holy god a LOT of the run is telegraphed by Lucius Fox in that scene when Bruce is hanging off the edge of the helipad.
    I skimmed through that last night, but I'll need to reread again to see the telegraphing. I can see some of it, but I'm also hampered by the "Snyder and King" authorship problem - trying to figure out what's foreshadowing Metal, and what's foreshadowing KingBats.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    I liked it. I called Claire getting the platinum kryptonite, although I was wrong about the Nain Pit. Catwoman being the key to Bruce's plan to defeat the villains was something I'd suggested months ago, and that was mostly right. I was way wrong about a number of things, of course (although I'd love to have King let us know how he was going to undo Alfred's death originally). I figured the "we're married in spirit" was a possible outcome, but didn't feel strongly about it. Thomas not being definitively dead seems . . . wrong. Even if he wasn't part of Manhattan's plot, put all the toys back in the box - we don't need a lesser writer coming in and giving us a worse Thomas vs Bruce story down the road (c.f. Hush Returns)

    I have to say, and this is broadly about expectation setting, calling this arc City of Bane really seemed a misfire. I enjoyed the story from Fall and the Fallen to the end, and probably will enjoy it more upon the great re-read of 2020, but Bane was such a trivial part of it and I imagined we'd see more of him. Bane didn't really have a character arc from 50 on that matched what was teased in I Am Suicide - that he actually wanted Psycho Pirate for a reason - and I refuse to believe that was all an act in furtherance of his omniscient plot to break Batman. I don't know what all got dropped in the shuffle to put Tynion on the book (big whatever from me there - oh, look, someone else telling their great Joker story that'll be bigger than all the ones before it), but I'd be curious if Bane and his rule over the city (especially the Riddler/Joker buddy cop stuff) wasn't the biggest casualty
    Good call! I didn't see the Claire thing coming, but it worked well, I think. I'm pleased with my Ventriloquist prediction, even if it was obvious. I liked how King made it a mutual plan - Batman wasn't surprised by Catwoman acting, but it was a true partnership.

    I actually prefer characters, even villains (except for the Joker) not being dead at the ends of runs. If you kill someone off, it feels too limiting to me for future stories. It's part of why I struggled so much with Alfred's death. I can now see the thematic reasons behind it, and how it can make for good new stories...though if they just replace Alfred with Lucius, I can see writers just repeating the same dynamic. Thankfully, Tynion is definitely not gonna do that - his pitch for his run explictly takes that relationship being gone and makes it a character point (part of why I love Tynion is that, similar to Gail Simone's first run of Birds of Prey, he takes what other writers have done and makes them integral to his story and characters, rather than resetting everything to his preferred status quo).

    Thomas as villain is causing a lot of consternation among those who loved him in Flashpoint and Knight of Vengeance. I think leaving him around for others to play with is actually good - if someone wants to "fix" Thomas, this leaves that door open, even though I don't think he needs to be fixed.

    I think you are absolutely right about the arc title "City of Bane." I think maybe something more generic wouldn't have caused the expectations - "City of Villains" or better yet, "City of the Year of the Legion of Villains Doom!!!!!" Seeing "City of Bane Conclusion" at the end of this issue was a bit of an emotional "huh". But not that big of one.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  8. #1943
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I think the title City of Bane was at the end clearly a deception. Maybe at first Bane was gonna play a bigger role, but I'm fine with how things turned out with the true main villain hiding behind Bane.

    About #85, what can I say? I loved it. It ties every theme and plot I wanted closure to at the same time that it prepares the ground to the limited series Batman/Catwoman. I think the structure of the issue was a pretty bold move, especially considering it was the end of the run, as you know about Bruce's victory within the first pages, but the payoff was worth it, with a nice and nuanced story that sews like a beautiful web of connected events throughout the run where everything matters.

    I'm okay with Thomas staying alive, though broken, and with how Bane uses those phrases Bruce said to him in Batman #20, which shows how far Bane's obsesion goes, before cracking Thomas' s back. Kudos to not go for the usual path of a big, climatic fight. I think the emotional ending was more genuine to the nature of King's Batman

    Mikel Janín did a good job and I wasn't bothered by the artist change with Hugo Petrus. The coloring managed to take us back to different moments in the run, even those that Bellaire didn't colored, like I Am Suicide, at the same time that works on its own
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  9. #1944
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    Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/

    This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?

    If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.

    I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.

  10. #1945
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/

    This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?

    If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.

    I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.
    By "standing alone" I don't think it means it takes place outside of continuity, I think he means that Bat/Cat can be enjoyed and consumed as its own 12-issue maxi series, divorced from the rest of his Batman run.

    Kind of like how most of Snyder's main Batman stories, like Metal, etc., can be read as standalone pieces, but you get more out of it when you look at it as part of a grander scale.

    Although it is worth remembering that Bat/Cat won't conclude until next year, which will presumably be after 5G has already started, so that might also be a case of why it may feel so "separate" from everything else as it starts to eventually catch up.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  11. #1946
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Thomas as villain is causing a lot of consternation among those who loved him in Flashpoint and Knight of Vengeance. I think leaving him around for others to play with is actually good - if someone wants to "fix" Thomas, this leaves that door open, even though I don't think he needs to be fixed.

    I think you are absolutely right about the arc title "City of Bane." I think maybe something more generic wouldn't have caused the expectations - "City of Villains" or better yet, "City of the Year of the Legion of Villains Doom!!!!!" Seeing "City of Bane Conclusion" at the end of this issue was a bit of an emotional "huh". But not that big of one.
    While I'm generally against killing villains, Thomas is spent as a villain (much like the previous two Thomas Waynes, they've done their arc, put Bruce through his paces, and he prevailed definitively), and any redemption would make him wildly duplicative with the rest of the Bat-family. Sure, someone might find a good role for him someday, but I'm not really convinced he adds something new to the canvas anymore. Bruce beat him physically and morally.

    That's an epic arc title! I laughed way too hard. It's pretty funny with the JL-arcs being so depressing and downward looking how hopeful and uplifting #85 was. It stands in sharp contrast to the end of Morrison's run where he looked at the arc of where Batman was going and appeared to go in a bit of a nihilistic direction*.

    *Really, the two runs are almost completely opposite. King starts with Batman down, contemplating death and having the rug pulled out from under him where Morrison starts with Bruce supercharged and happy (ish). Thomas Wayne appears in King's run originally as a helpful person who Bruce wants to save and then becomes the true villain, whereas Thomas is evil from the start in Morrison's but is fundamentally a joke by the time Joker took care of him. Both runs end with a death (Damian' and Alfred's) and Bruce reacting incredibly different in each. You could even make an attempt at relating Kathy Kane's role in Inc to Catwoman in City of Bane, but that might be trying way too hard. Maybe. I'll think about it for when we do the re-read.
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  12. #1947
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    Ok, so I just read this new interview from today with King: https://ew.com/books/2019/12/18/tom-...tman-catwoman/

    This makes it sound like the Bat/Cat book might take place as some kind of Elseworlds thing. He keeps going on about it standing alone and having complete freedom with it. I don't mind that in general, because I think he's better with these 12 issue maxi series, but what about this whole "big change" he kept promising?

    If he says that the Bruce/Selina resolution from this last issue WAS going to be how they resolved things in his original 100 issue plan, then what was this supposed big change that he was amazed DC would allow? And is that still happening, because he had said like three times in other interviews, on twitter, etc. that it would happen in Bat/Cat now. And if it does happen in Bat/Cat, then is it not really canon or what? Because he says that Tynion's Batman is THE Batman book from now on.

    I feel slightly duped. I wonder if DC never really wanted these changes to happen in the main canon in the first place, and now that's why they've delayed the Bat/Cat book- so that no one confuses it for the main run.
    King has introduced changes already. Killing Alfred, making Thomas so cruel to his son and Thomas Wayne sticking around on this world [his world was blown up] Those seem like big changes to the Batman Status Quo

  13. #1948
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I skimmed through that last night, but I'll need to reread again to see the telegraphing. I can see some of it, but I'm also hampered by the "Snyder and King" authorship problem - trying to figure out what's foreshadowing Metal, and what's foreshadowing KingBats
    The more I've become accustomed to King's particular pacing and phrasing, it is now pretty easy to spot who wrote which pages in Rebirth #1, IMO.

    Considering how much of 85 was focused on the theme of "nothing changes. does it?" it's nice to see that was there in the beginning with the Calendar Man stuff in Rebirth #1.

    But yeah I didn't expect to find new meaning in Lucius's story to Bruce about legacy and madness, but it resonates more now that everything is laid out.

  14. #1949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    Can't believe these two got so horny they forgot to get married.
    Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.

    What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."

  15. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyxx1481 View Post
    Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.

    What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."
    I loved the whole scene where Thomas is remembering his past with Martha and then Bane enters the room and breaks him

    My favorite quotes were "There are No good deaths. But there are good lives. Let's try to live one of those" and the entire page that ends with Bruce stating "and I choose Batman"
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

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