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  1. #1246
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    My fantasy/hope is that she gets completely depowered and becomes a new Oracle. But her death would be ok too.
    Ohohoh. People are gonna be pissed if she becomes Oracle.

  2. #1247
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ohohoh. People are gonna be pissed if she becomes Oracle.
    To be fair, any new character added to the bat-family would make people lose their shit. Claire has a lot more problematic baggages than most and probably next to zero support even compared to the other recent additions, but people being pissed shouldn't in itself disqualify her, I think.

  3. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    That was never a pitched idea. It was just King saying in a podcast what he would have done if he had the time/interest in doing it. It was never something DC rejected. King's only involvement was shooting Dick in the head and then throwing the story over to editorial to sort out. He didn't care if they ignored it or undid it in the next issue with a Zatanna spell but he was going to shoot Dick in the head regardless. That is all he cared about. The original pitch from Percy was that Dick was going to suffer from vertigo after getting shot, we even got a solicit of it, but then that was suddenly scrapped for the amnesia plot with Lobdell coming on the book with Percy leaving after one issue.

    If King actually wanted to write a story and follow up with what happened to Dick after he got shot he had the pull to write it, but he didn't have any interest in doing it.
    If it wasnít pitched then why did Travis Moore show the concept art?

  4. #1249
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross61 View Post
    If it wasn’t pitched then why did Travis Moore show the concept art?
    That seemed largely for funsies.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

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  5. #1250
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ohohoh. People are gonna be pissed if she becomes Oracle.
    I might be one of them! But I do miss Batman having a network person, an IT person so to speak. And Barbara just seems to never be going back.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  6. #1251
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    https://www.cbr.com/exclusive-batman...-selina-bruce/

    So the preview of 79 confirms via editor's note that 78 and 79 takes place before 77. Well, I guess this'll reignite our debate about whether these issues should've been placed before 77 or not. :P

    I wonder if the trade might actually reorder the issues around - I just checked my trade of I am Bane and it places 24 (the proposal) right after the main storyline and before 23's Brave and the Mold instead of going in order of publication.
    I think 75-77 present a really solid reveal of the worldbuilding and rules of the City of Bane conflict. And I think he wanted to try to get as much Tony Daniel as he could. My own theory is that Tony Daniel actually drew...probably two or three full issues from March to June, then they restructured the whole run because of the Bat/Cat mini change, so Daniel had to redraw all he could of 75, and that meant he only could do bits and pieces of 76-77.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  7. #1252

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    https://www.cbr.com/exclusive-batman...-selina-bruce/

    So the preview of 79 confirms via editor's note that 78 and 79 takes place before 77. Well, I guess this'll reignite our debate about whether these issues should've been placed before 77 or not. :P

    I wonder if the trade might actually reorder the issues around - I just checked my trade of I am Bane and it places 24 (the proposal) right after the main storyline and before 23's Brave and the Mold instead of going in order of publication.
    Didnít Bruce wake up from his coma in #77 in the apartment in Paris with Selina watching over him? How does #79 take place before that?

    Unless it goes like this.

    Bruce/Selina parts of 77
    78-79
    Damian parts of 77
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  8. #1253
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think 75-77 present a really solid reveal of the worldbuilding and rules of the City of Bane conflict. And I think he wanted to try to get as much Tony Daniel as he could. My own theory is that Tony Daniel actually drew...probably two or three full issues from March to June, then they restructured the whole run because of the Bat/Cat mini change, so Daniel had to redraw all he could of 75, and that meant he only could do bits and pieces of 76-77.
    I do think these 2 issues at least were a last minute addition after the Bat/Cat decision, because long before it happened (I believe earlier this year around the time Knightmares was coming out) King was teasing another Kite Man 2-parter interlude for City Of Bane and we got this in its place. Also remember #74 went through a last minute rewrite as well.

    I feel like there aren't really any mega story changes that occurred through this, and moreso editing tweaks and removals so as to fit the original 15-20 issues into 12, and make 85 into a satisfying ending in its own right.
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  9. #1254
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I do think these 2 issues at least were a last minute addition after the Bat/Cat decision, because long before it happened (I believe earlier this year around the time Knightmares was coming out) King was teasing another Kite Man 2-parter interlude for City Of Bane and we got this in its place. Also remember #74 went through a last minute rewrite as well.

    I feel like there aren't really any mega story changes that occurred through this, and moreso editing tweaks and removals so as to fit the original 15-20 issues into 12, and make 85 into a satisfying ending in its own right.
    I think they were part of the restructuring, and I think Kite Man has been shafted by the whole Bat/Cat change. Which is sorta sad, but I do love Bat/Cat way more than Kite Man (hell yeah!)

    70-74 ALL got last minute rewrites - that's why Jorge Fornes was brought on to do fill in art for them (and what AMAZING fill in art it was!). That's part of why I think Daniel had to redraw. Because even though he's been a lot slower in the last 5 years than he was previously, Daniel didn't need March-August to draw the 2.75 issues he did.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  10. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think they were part of the restructuring, and I think Kite Man has been shafted by the whole Bat/Cat change. Which is sorta sad, but I do love Bat/Cat way more than Kite Man (hell yeah!)

    70-74 ALL got last minute rewrites - that's why Jorge Fornes was brought on to do fill in art for them (and what AMAZING fill in art it was!). That's part of why I think Daniel had to redraw. Because even though he's been a lot slower in the last 5 years than he was previously, Daniel didn't need March-August to draw the 2.75 issues he did.
    This makes sense. The whole point (well, not the whole point, but one of the points) of Knightmares was having a reason for a rotating art crew to let Tony Daniel have time to do all of City of Bane. I'm not imagining that, right, someone said that, didn't they?

    As to the timeline, I think they're kind of stuck. Unless they actually choose to do a full re-order (e.g. 75, 76, Bat/Cat portions of 77, 78-79, Damian portions of 77) in collections, it's always going to be a bit wonky (or even something more drastic with interweaving the Gotham and non-Gotham parts of the story*). It's mostly irrelevant now, but they should have used an annual or a special or something to help fix the timeline of events when they had to shuffle stuff around for the "Bat/Cat/New Gods/whatever we're calling the Batman re-writering" change in the 105 issue plan. Oh, well.


    *Burnham redrawing Batman, Inc for the collections is a unique event in comics, but I'd love the heck out of it if they at least did like FC or IC where they added a couple extra pages here and there to expand on scenes that needed expansion in the collected editions. King's run seems to be selling well in collections and DC is definitely moving into a more "Batman by [Creator]" collections where it could make the money back, I think.
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  11. #1256
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think they were part of the restructuring, and I think Kite Man has been shafted by the whole Bat/Cat change. Which is sorta sad, but I do love Bat/Cat way more than Kite Man (hell yeah!)

    70-74 ALL got last minute rewrites - that's why Jorge Fornes was brought on to do fill in art for them (and what AMAZING fill in art it was!). That's part of why I think Daniel had to redraw. Because even though he's been a lot slower in the last 5 years than he was previously, Daniel didn't need March-August to draw the 2.75 issues he did.
    Yeah, would also explain the sudden Romita Jr. surprise appearance for 80 and 81. They probably needed a fill-in and he's a good way of disguising it to not seem as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    This makes sense. The whole point (well, not the whole point, but one of the points) of Knightmares was having a reason for a rotating art crew to let Tony Daniel have time to do all of City of Bane. I'm not imagining that, right, someone said that, didn't they?
    You're right, King mentioned that. So there must definitely be more (at least pencilled) Daniel work out there beyond the 2 and a half issues we got. I'm very curious to hear once the run is all done, all the other ideas King had and had to change for whatever reason, because it's all really interesting.

    Also side note, I don't know if this is an error on the solicitations, but Batman #84 and 85 are listed as "City Of Bane Chapters 11 and 12" even though they should be Chapters 10 and 11. Is there another issue they're counting as part 10 or was that just a mistake?
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  12. #1257
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Yeah, unless it directly changes how the plot plays out later, I'm ignoring that editor's note. It's an editor's note, not a writer's note. And DC's editors are BAD.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  13. #1258
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    This makes sense. The whole point (well, not the whole point, but one of the points) of Knightmares was having a reason for a rotating art crew to let Tony Daniel have time to do all of City of Bane. I'm not imagining that, right, someone said that, didn't they?

    As to the timeline, I think they're kind of stuck. Unless they actually choose to do a full re-order (e.g. 75, 76, Bat/Cat portions of 77, 78-79, Damian portions of 77) in collections, it's always going to be a bit wonky (or even something more drastic with interweaving the Gotham and non-Gotham parts of the story*). It's mostly irrelevant now, but they should have used an annual or a special or something to help fix the timeline of events when they had to shuffle stuff around for the "Bat/Cat/New Gods/whatever we're calling the Batman re-writering" change in the 105 issue plan. Oh, well.


    *Burnham redrawing Batman, Inc for the collections is a unique event in comics, but I'd love the heck out of it if they at least did like FC or IC where they added a couple extra pages here and there to expand on scenes that needed expansion in the collected editions. King's run seems to be selling well in collections and DC is definitely moving into a more "Batman by [Creator]" collections where it could make the money back, I think.
    Yes, that was what King said multiple times about Knightmares - allowing Janin and Daniel enough time to do their arcs...except now, due to changes, they had to redraw and rely on substitution. I love this run - I love it so much - but I am irritated by that.

    I don't think it's too wonky, myself - it's just a flashback. I don't complain about the way the Nolan Dark Knight films play with the chronology of the narration (mostly Batman Begins), and I think King's run will read reasonably well in a similar way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Yeah, would also explain the sudden Romita Jr. surprise appearance for 80 and 81. They probably needed a fill-in and he's a good way of disguising it to not seem as such.

    You're right, King mentioned that. So there must definitely be more (at least pencilled) Daniel work out there beyond the 2 and a half issues we got. I'm very curious to hear once the run is all done, all the other ideas King had and had to change for whatever reason, because it's all really interesting.

    Also side note, I don't know if this is an error on the solicitations, but Batman #84 and 85 are listed as "City Of Bane Chapters 11 and 12" even though they should be Chapters 10 and 11. Is there another issue they're counting as part 10 or was that just a mistake?
    I did notice the weird numbering. Maybe they're counting Batman Annual #4 as a chapter of City of Bane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Yeah, unless it directly changes how the plot plays out later, I'm ignoring that editor's note. It's an editor's note, not a writer's note. And DC's editors are BAD.
    I'm pretty sure it does.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  14. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yes, that was what King said multiple times about Knightmares - allowing Janin and Daniel enough time to do their arcs...except now, due to changes, they had to redraw and rely on substitution. I love this run - I love it so much - but I am irritated by that.

    I don't think it's too wonky, myself - it's just a flashback. I don't complain about the way the Nolan Dark Knight films play with the chronology of the narration (mostly Batman Begins), and I think King's run will read reasonably well in a similar way.
    It's not that I have a huge problem with it - just that when I think about the collection of this, it will read very poorly to follow up the neck crack with the beach scene. I mean, they can do a better version of the editorial caption - start 78 in the collection with "Before" at the top, as King is wont to do - but this just gets back to what we've discussed before: the shortening of this run, whenever it happened internally (my guess is it was actually happening before we found out about it by a bit), has really broken up the flow in order for King to hit all the story and emotional plot points he needs to hit. He's lost, what, 8 issues, for his run, and that doesn't even account for the fact that Bat/Cat #1 has to be a first issue which means it'll have to be written a bit differently than issue 86 would.

    In the alternate world where he gets to issue 105, we probably get another Joker/Riddler & Thomas/Claire Gotham issue (or a real plot for them interwoven with Bruce's healing) before we get Damian coming on in with the magic. Or a Kite Man interlude that does functionally the same thing (explicating what is going on in Gotham and what Bane is up to). So, given that I believe that with all my heart, I would not hate it if they used some of the probably-existing-but-not-used Tony Daniel's art to finesse the timeline and improve the flow when they collect CoB. I think the run will read fine w/o extra issues or reshuffling, but it's possible it'll read much better with a little bit of care.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  15. #1260
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    It's not that I have a huge problem with it - just that when I think about the collection of this, it will read very poorly to follow up the neck crack with the beach scene. I mean, they can do a better version of the editorial caption - start 78 in the collection with "Before" at the top, as King is wont to do - but this just gets back to what we've discussed before: the shortening of this run, whenever it happened internally (my guess is it was actually happening before we found out about it by a bit), has really broken up the flow in order for King to hit all the story and emotional plot points he needs to hit. He's lost, what, 8 issues, for his run, and that doesn't even account for the fact that Bat/Cat #1 has to be a first issue which means it'll have to be written a bit differently than issue 86 would.

    In the alternate world where he gets to issue 105, we probably get another Joker/Riddler & Thomas/Claire Gotham issue (or a real plot for them interwoven with Bruce's healing) before we get Damian coming on in with the magic. Or a Kite Man interlude that does functionally the same thing (explicating what is going on in Gotham and what Bane is up to). So, given that I believe that with all my heart, I would not hate it if they used some of the probably-existing-but-not-used Tony Daniel's art to finesse the timeline and improve the flow when they collect CoB. I think the run will read fine w/o extra issues or reshuffling, but it's possible it'll read much better with a little bit of care.
    I disagree with that it'll read poorly. I think your idea of "before" as an opening caption is a good one, though!

    Very interesting counterfactual suppositions about what could have been. As a fan of King's 12-issue runs, I think that this is actually a plus for the overall story, but I do think all the restructuring has been a bit disorienting.

    This article was retweeted by Clay Mann, and is hilarious: https://twitter.com/EW/status/1173990335632105472
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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