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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Nothing against that but a lot people thinks King writes Batman as incompetent though the way Batman broke into Santa Prisca and defeated Bane does not mean a thing. I'm more puzzled by how she was able to knockout all three Flashes though. That took me out of the story for a spell. I think the Meow is just a quirk exclusive to King's iteration Selina nothing else really.
    I do get confused by the "Tom King's Batman is incompetent" thing, because the way he took out Bane - both resetting his own back, and then headbutting Bane, are really ridiculously overpowered moves.

    The Flash thing, to me, was an example of Selina vs. Ivy's puppets, rather than Selina vs. Flash. It made sense to me. But I'm not a Flash reader, so I don't really have that perspective.

    As for the Meow - I'm still holding out hope that Selina's going to be an incarnation of a Cat or something. Or got bitten by a radioactive cat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    It took a while for me to get on board with King's run, so i missed the first few storylines. Really it was the I Am Bane story that got me hooked, especially the big head butt on Bane - just a ridiculous and ballsy way to end the story. King knows how to write a memorable ending.
    Interesting! I'm actually more hooked by King's beginnings and parallel sections. Which of King's other endings do you find really effective? I'd say Selina's answer to the proposal was my favorite, even if I'm torn with the actual end to War of Jokes and Riddles.
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  2. #32
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I do get confused by the "Tom King's Batman is incompetent" thing, because the way he took out Bane - both resetting his own back, and then headbutting Bane, are really ridiculously overpowered moves.

    The Flash thing, to me, was an example of Selina vs. Ivy's puppets, rather than Selina vs. Flash. It made sense to me. But I'm not a Flash reader, so I don't really have that perspective.

    As for the Meow - I'm still holding out hope that Selina's going to be an incarnation of a Cat or something. Or got bitten by a radioactive cat!

    Interesting! I'm actually more hooked by King's beginnings and parallel sections. Which of King's other endings do you find really effective? I'd say Selina's answer to the proposal was my favorite, even if I'm torn with the actual end to War of Jokes and Riddles.
    If anything the Batgod might be alive in King's iteration of Batman just in smaller doses. I never thought Batman could even headbutt someone as strong as Bane let alone reset his back considering how much toil and struggle batman went through just to reset it in after Knightfall. Well I read the Flash and I thought so too that because Ivy had no idea on how the Flashes control their powers that's how Selina was able to knock them out. Though he could have had her just strategically out maneuver the Flashes instead of knocking them out in blow. Maybe King wants to put in the Catwoman movie origin for Selina? I actually like dthe ending of the War of Jokes and Riddle because it does show that Batman wasn't really at his peak in those years of him just starting out.
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  3. #33
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    If anything the Batgod might be alive in King's iteration of Batman just in smaller doses. I never thought Batman could even headbutt someone as strong as Bane let alone reset his back considering how much toil and struggle batman went through just to reset it in after Knightfall. Well I read the Flash and I thought so too that because Ivy had no idea on how the Flashes control their powers that's how Selina was able to knock them out. Though he could have had her just strategically out maneuver the Flashes instead of knocking them out in blow. Maybe King wants to put in the Catwoman movie origin for Selina? I actually like dthe ending of the War of Jokes and Riddle because it does show that Batman wasn't really at his peak in those years of him just starting out.
    Haha, I actually thought about the Catwoman movie origin. But let us hope that's not the case!

    I think the ending of War of Jokes and Riddles is definitely better than the beginning, for me. Showing Batman actually forming a plan, and then losing control at the Riddler's murder of a small boy just to prove he's smart - it made Batman very relateable for me.
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  4. #34
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha, I actually thought about the Catwoman movie origin. But let us hope that's not the case!

    I think the ending of War of Jokes and Riddles is definitely better than the beginning, for me. Showing Batman actually forming a plan, and then losing control at the Riddler's murder of a small boy just to prove he's smart - it made Batman very relateable for me.
    If anything it's up to Joelle Jones to decide that considering how we know little of Selina's past right now and her old mob boss history seems to have vanished. Well there have been complaints about how Batman acts too perfect so maybe King's Batman is a game changer. but when we get it there's a lot of complaints i'm not even sure why they even exist.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  5. #35
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    If anything it's up to Joelle Jones to decide that considering how we know little of Selina's past right now and her old mob boss history seems to have vanished. Well there have been complaints about how Batman acts too perfect so maybe King's Batman is a game changer. but when we get it there's a lot of complaints i'm not even sure why they even exist.
    That will indeed be interesting to see with the Catwoman series (though as a big fan of Valentine's Catwoman run, I would be sad to see that go ).

    I don't think it's wrong to not like something - not at all. I just want a place for people who do like what we're getting.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That will indeed be interesting to see with the Catwoman series (though as a big fan of Valentine's Catwoman run, I would be sad to see that go ).

    I don't think it's wrong to not like something - not at all. I just want a place for people who do like what we're getting.
    Valentine is from the New 52 isn't it? I didn't think anyone liked the revamp history of Catwoman started out as kid from a broken home and grew from a petty street thief to skilled femme fatale thief. And i am not against that i'm just saying that I can't understand all the complaints coming in. What interest me is the story of how Catwoman got her wedding dress I'm not sure what the story is about wedding jitters perhaps? But like my friend Nightdreamer said it's a fun way to go dress shopping.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 06-12-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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  7. #37
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Valentine is from the New 52 isn't it? I didn't think anyone liked the revamp history of Catwoman started out as kid from a broken home and grew from a petty street thief to skilled femme fatale thief. And i am not against that i'm just saying that I can't understand all the complaints coming in. What interest me is the story of how Catwoman got her wedding dress I'm not sure what the story is about wedding jitters perhaps? But like my friend Nightdreamer said it's a fun way to go dress shopping.
    I think Batman #44 was part of King setting up more of the wedding. It's all re-renders of previous stories - similar to all the dialogue balloons in Grayson #12 - and I doubt we'll be able to tell what the real point is until #50 hits, or maybe even after. It's nice to see the progression of BatCat romance through the years that way. I think it's very interesting to delve into what points are highlighted by King in his use of the old scenes.

    In terms of Catwoman getting the dress - I think it both serves as a backdoor pilot to the upcoming Catwoman series, and it's a bit of Catwoman's personality, though I kinda hope that we see consequences of it as well - stealing something like that is probably going to hurt some poor dressmaker.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think Batman #44 was part of King setting up more of the wedding. It's all re-renders of previous stories - similar to all the dialogue balloons in Grayson #12 - and I doubt we'll be able to tell what the real point is until #50 hits, or maybe even after. It's nice to see the progression of BatCat romance through the years that way. I think it's very interesting to delve into what points are highlighted by King in his use of the old scenes.

    In terms of Catwoman getting the dress - I think it both serves as a backdoor pilot to the upcoming Catwoman series, and it's a bit of Catwoman's personality, though I kinda hope that we see consequences of it as well - stealing something like that is probably going to hurt some poor dressmaker.
    It was a cool montage of their relationship through ages and even had the guts to include the time where Selina was a genuine supervillainess. Well i hope when #50 hits we can see the point of #44. I think the consequences of Catwoamn stealing her dress might be too minor for anyone to really care about it so I doubt King will do anything to it. The dressmaker will probably be distressed that he or she lost a great dress and their other products are covered in dust. I am amazed the explosion didn't draw attention to Selina's heist.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I take the Batman resetting his own back as him just putting some bone into place, not that Bane broke his back again or that it was a massive injury, just as I take Catwoman telling Bane that she broke his back as her pissing him off and making a throwback to Knightfall. I'm pretty ignorant about medicine and biology, but what Batman did made sense personally in a superheroes comic book logic, so it didn't take me off the story. Catwoman taking out three flashes was King showing how Poison Ivy can't control this superheroes and villains perfectly, just as Superman falling with a whistle and later on killing Bruce in a moment of outrage, but maybe a more subtle way of showing it would have worked better. The head butt was anticlimatic for a lot of people in this forum, but I felt it compelling. I was in the edge of my seat reading that comic, and Bane spent a whole day beating villains in Arkham Asylum prior to that fight, so I can understand his defeat by a direct hit
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

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  10. #40
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I take the Batman resetting his own back as him just putting some bone into place, not that Bane broke his back again or that it was a massive injury, just as I take Catwoman telling Bane that she broke his back as her pissing him off and making a throwback to Knightfall. I'm pretty ignorant about medicine and biology, but what Batman did made sense personally in a superheroes comic book logic, so it didn't take me off the story. Catwoman taking out three flashes was King showing how Poison Ivy can't control this superheroes and villains perfectly, just as Superman falling with a whistle and later on killing Bruce in a moment of outrage, but maybe a more subtle way of showing it would have worked better. The head butt was anticlimatic for a lot of people in this forum, but I felt it compelling. I was in the edge of my seat reading that comic, and Bane spent a whole day beating villains in Arkham Asylum prior to that fight, so I can understand his defeat by a direct hit
    I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as what happened in Dark Knight Rises, but I also had a problem with that scene as well. So I guess I consistently just don't buy non-magical back injury healing by strenuous exertion/punching. It does make superhero logic, but...dunno. Just a particular thing that didn't make sense in my head.

    Totally on board with King's logic for why Bat and Cat could take on the League. I don't know if I thought the Bane headbutt was anticlimactic, but I was really enjoying the parallels/mental conversation aspect, so I was pretty okay with it. Plus, the fact that Bane had run his own gauntlet, just like he made Batman do it in Knightfall, was cool.
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  11. #41
    Fantastic Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as what happened in Dark Knight Rises, but I also had a problem with that scene as well. So I guess I consistently just don't buy non-magical back injury healing by strenuous exertion/punching. It does make superhero logic, but...dunno. Just a particular thing that didn't make sense in my head.

    Totally on board with King's logic for why Bat and Cat could take on the League. I don't know if I thought the Bane headbutt was anticlimactic, but I was really enjoying the parallels/mental conversation aspect, so I was pretty okay with it. Plus, the fact that Bane had run his own gauntlet, just like he made Batman do it in Knightfall, was cool.
    Well, itís just something that happens sometimes. We crash with something we just canít buy and it pulls us off the story. It can be something we donít see possible or something we donít think the character would do. I have had similar experiences a lot of times
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Your point about characters is well made - I don't care that much about Holly or Booster, either, but the use of Deathstroke in War of Jokes and Riddles, just being a random assassin to fight with Deadshot - that really annoyed me.
    Slade specifically being there is a source of annoyance for me. I hate shoehorning him into the Bat-Verse in general, unless it is in some way connected to Dick. Slade is a contender for Dick's arch nemesis, he doesn't need to lose yet another thing to his more popular Bat-Dad. Especially when Bruce already has the "arch nemesis" thing covered in spades, while Dick can't even hold onto one for very long. Slade showing up in Morrison's Batman & Robin was a good use of the character, and is more of what I'm looking for. Also, Slade's a bastard but I don't think it's in character at all for him to draw attention to himself like that by fighting Deadshot and wiping out so many civilians. However, I do not have a problem with Bruce taking him out in a surprise attack after 5 straight days of fighting. I've made it no secret that I do not care for God Mode Deathstroke, AKA the guy who couldn't kill the Teen Titans.

    In general, I don't like the fact that all the villains are there that early in Batman's career pre-Robin. There was practically nobody left to appear. Two-Face in particular stood out, I always feel like he should appear later than a lot of the other major names to give Harvey Dent some time as a supporting player before shit goes south. It kind of reminds me of Jeph Loeb's tendency to throw as many villains as possible into a story regardless of whether or not it makes sense. However, unlike Loeb, when King focuses on them individually as characters (Kite-Man of all people especially, but also Ivy, Bane and the Ventriloquist) he has some more interesting things to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    And yes, the Wonder Woman story didn't hit the way it should have, especially after the Superman issue. King has acknowledged that his cliffhanger shouldn't have gone the way it did. And I love that King is frequently willing to change and acknowledge mistakes, without letting it paralyze him (with the potential exception of what he did with Poison Ivy in Everyone Loves Ivy, which felt a bit too much like a retcon to me.) And I completely agree that King's voice for Diana is much better than Robinson's.
    I don't think it's hard to have a better grasp on Diana than Robinson. Her sounding robotic was a common complaint for her by some WW fans, but that's just King's dialogue combined with the way Diana usually speaks since Perez. She's always in "Regal" mode when handled by most writers, with a much less relaxed way of speaking. I like and respect that he acknowledged the mistake, and I'd be pretty happy if he was announced as taking over her book. Referencing Jumpa gains him many brownie points. If unleashed on her universe, what other obscure stuff would he bring back?

    I hope he did the Ivy thing because it was always his plan. It sucks if he got peer pressured into doing it, over Ivy killing some mob goons. Ivy feeling guilty over such a thing feels grossly out of character, but that's the direction they seem to want to move her in. I'll never be into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Interesting that you're on the fence with #48's Joker. I really liked this use of Joker - he's horrific, and I hate him (as I always hate the Joker), but he's interesting. Too often, he's just a ridiculous plot device, and here, it feels very much like an actual agent of chaos.
    IDK, it's probably down to needing to read the full story once it's out in its proper context instead of rushing through it in the store and reading scans on line. I usually like the Joker to engage in more "creative" (for lack of a better word) terror than just shooting people. I feel it's too common for the character. But it is also unfortunately not without precedent, so King is not guilty of doing some unheard of thing (like he isn't in general, despite what some would say). But I used to dislike Morrison's Joker until something eventually clicked, and now I love him. Maybe King's will be the same? I might eventually come around to Snyder's Joker as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    The first CBR article in a looooong time that I actually liked:

    How Tom King is Revolutionalizing the DC Universe by Making it More Human
    Nice article. I can tell a lot of posters on this forum would disagree, but I'm not one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The Flash thing, to me, was an example of Selina vs. Ivy's puppets, rather than Selina vs. Flash. It made sense to me. But I'm not a Flash reader, so I don't really have that perspective.
    Yeah, I'd be the first to complain about this if she took out Barry and the Wally's who were fully control of themselves, because that would be total BS. But this provides enough details to let it skate by: they are Ivy's meat puppets and she doesn't know how to utilize their powers the way they do. Same with the Superman thing, which would enrage me if King-through-Batman didn't acknowledge that Clark wouldn't be taken out so easily. It's all silly and dubious comic book powers, I feel like if you get hung up on that stuff too much the fun just evaporates.

  13. #43
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Interesting! I'm actually more hooked by King's beginnings and parallel sections. Which of King's other endings do you find really effective? I'd say Selina's answer to the proposal was my favorite, even if I'm torn with the actual end to War of Jokes and Riddles.
    Each ending has shown a different facet of Batman's character. I Am Bane ended with Batman's raw willpower against a superior foe. War of Jokes and Riddles reveals Batman's perfectionism. Rules of Engagement's ending shows Batman's obsessive nature. Everyone Loves Ivy ends by showing Batman's compassion. Superfriends' ending depict's Batman's fierce loyalty. The Gift was about Batman's grief.

    Thematically these stories are razor-focused on Batman to the exclusion of (and perhaps expense of) many supporting characters. And in that sense, I find the endings very satisfying and memorable, because of what they say.

    But you are right about the parallels and beginnings. There are tons of homages, callouts and patterns in there to dissect
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 06-12-2018 at 03:00 PM.
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  14. #44
    Fantastic Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think it's hard to have a better grasp on Diana than Robinson. Her sounding robotic was a common complaint for her by some WW fans, but that's just King's dialogue combined with the way Diana usually speaks since Perez. She's always in "Regal" mode when handled by most writers, with a much less relaxed way of speaking. I like and respect that he acknowledged the mistake, and I'd be pretty happy if he was announced as taking over her book. Referencing Jumpa gains him many brownie points. If unleashed on her universe, what other obscure stuff would he bring back?
    What I really like about King's nostalgia and knowledge of comics history is that it feels like he uses to enrich the story he is telling right now, rather than including it for its own sake. At least from the limited amount of his stories that I've read (Batman's not my character, really).

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I hope he did the Ivy thing because it was always his plan. It sucks if he got peer pressured into doing it, over Ivy killing some mob goons. Ivy feeling guilty over such a thing feels grossly out of character, but that's the direction they seem to want to move her in. I'll never be into it.
    Given the new take on Ivy that Simone did in the 2014 Batgirl Annual, I'd say she opened up a door for lots of different takes of Ivy, including her feelings. Ivy in winter feels guilty and weak. But not having read those issues, I'm not sure how well that explanation would fit there.

    I do think there should be room for both callous good Ivy and empathetic (for Ivy values of empathetic) bad Ivy.

  15. #45
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Slade specifically being there is a source of annoyance for me. I hate shoehorning him into the Bat-Verse in general, unless it is in some way connected to Dick. Slade is a contender for Dick's arch nemesis, he doesn't need to lose yet another thing to his more popular Bat-Dad. Especially when Bruce already has the "arch nemesis" thing covered in spades, while Dick can't even hold onto one for very long. Slade showing up in Morrison's Batman & Robin was a good use of the character, and is more of what I'm looking for. Also, Slade's a bastard but I don't think it's in character at all for him to draw attention to himself like that by fighting Deadshot and wiping out so many civilians. However, I do not have a problem with Bruce taking him out in a surprise attack after 5 straight days of fighting. I've made it no secret that I do not care for God Mode Deathstroke, AKA the guy who couldn't kill the Teen Titans.

    In general, I don't like the fact that all the villains are there that early in Batman's career pre-Robin. There was practically nobody left to appear. Two-Face in particular stood out, I always feel like he should appear later than a lot of the other major names to give Harvey Dent some time as a supporting player before shit goes south. It kind of reminds me of Jeph Loeb's tendency to throw as many villains as possible into a story regardless of whether or not it makes sense. However, unlike Loeb, when King focuses on them individually as characters (Kite-Man of all people especially, but also Ivy, Bane and the Ventriloquist) he has some more interesting things to say.

    I don't think it's hard to have a better grasp on Diana than Robinson. Her sounding robotic was a common complaint for her by some WW fans, but that's just King's dialogue combined with the way Diana usually speaks since Perez. She's always in "Regal" mode when handled by most writers, with a much less relaxed way of speaking. I like and respect that he acknowledged the mistake, and I'd be pretty happy if he was announced as taking over her book. Referencing Jumpa gains him many brownie points. If unleashed on her universe, what other obscure stuff would he bring back?

    I hope he did the Ivy thing because it was always his plan.

    IDK, it's probably down to needing to read the full story once it's out in its proper context instead of rushing through it in the store and reading scans on line. I usually like the Joker to engage in more "creative" (for lack of a better word) terror than just shooting people. I feel it's too common for the character. But it is also unfortunately not without precedent, so King is not guilty of doing some unheard of thing (like he isn't in general, despite what some would say). But I used to dislike Morrison's Joker until something eventually clicked, and now I love him. Maybe King's will be the same? I might eventually come around to Snyder's Joker as well.
    I agree that God-Mode Deathstroke is annoying (and I also think God-Mode any character, including Batman, is the same). I don't mind Batman taking him out, I do mind Deadshot being a five day challenge. Additionally, I agree that Slade doesn't randomly kill people just to kill someone he's not even being paid to kill. It just felt a bit like King wanted to insert a parallel there that wasn't as strong as other parallels.

    You have a good point on the other villains - honestly, I don't remember most of them, which I think is largely because War of Jokes and Riddles lost about four or five issues from the original plan for a 12 issue mini with Gerads.

    Totally agree with you on Robinson's "Diana." And considering my favorite Wonder Woman is Rucka, and King and Rucka share a very tragic, romantic sensibility, I think King could do an amazing Diana. I would really love for another Batman writer to follow Rucka and do a defining Wonder Woman run - I had hopes for Snyder, but he's on Justice League (with a bit of Diana, but it's not the same). But maybe we'll get lucky, and in 2 years, when he's done with his 103 issue Batman run, we'll get an awesome Diana story out of King.

    I doubt we'll ever know if the innocence of Ivy was the real plan, since he hasn't said it was in response to the fans. But it didn't quite feel wholly satisfying to me. But that's probably just me.

    I guess I think a Joker who is too creative isn't chaotic enough. I prefer a theme. I actually dislike Rucka's Joker because he's mostly just a sadistic murderer, and has no flair. He just kills. There's hints of games, but if you look at Soft Targets or NML: Endgame, Joker's just a serial killer. King's Joker is goofy but nasty, theology and bombs in crosses. There's something poetically horrible about it, and I feel like King has a proper horror of him, rather than just hating him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Each ending has shown a different facet of Batman's character. I Am Bane ended with Batman's raw willpower against a superior foe. War of Jokes and Riddles reveals Batman's perfectionism. Rules of Engagement's ending shows Batman's obsessive nature. Everyone Loves Ivy ends by showing Batman's compassion. Superfriends' ending depict's Batman's fierce loyalty. The Gift was about Batman's grief.

    Thematically these stories are razor-focused on Batman to the exclusion of (and perhaps expense of) many supporting characters. And in that sense, I find the endings very satisfying and memorable, because of what they say.

    But you are right about the parallels and beginnings. There are tons of homages, callouts and patterns in there to dissect
    Awesome idea! I hadn't thought of the characteristics being revealed in the endings. I'm not sure it completely works for me, but I'll definitely have that in mind as I reread for this thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    What I really like about King's nostalgia and knowledge of comics history is that it feels like he uses to enrich the story he is telling right now, rather than including it for its own sake. At least from the limited amount of his stories that I've read (Batman's not my character, really).
    Absolutely! The stuff he references clearly means a lot to him - it's not just facts, it's stuff that is meaningful in its original context, and in the new context. (And Batman's not really my character, either - I like him, but I'm more a Batfamily fan. But I have to admit - King and Tynion have really pushed me into being more of a Batman fan!)
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Reviews

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