King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[Scott Taylor]

King's stories are all about the journey rather than getting to some big climax. The reason Alfred may be dead (I'm not quite convinced just yet, even so) is probably because DC wanted there to be an actual change as a result of the run. That way, it gives the reader a reason to keep going, theoretically, to see if things snap back to normal (which we know they will).

So the new run in Batman starting next year - to me it feels like a been there done that already. Just because I feel like that team has already had its say multiple times. It feels like a holding pattern until 5G happens.

What I am really intrigued about it Bat/Cat, like the rest of you. It seems like that is going to be our oasis in the middle of a bunch of really bland Batman stuff.

[charliehustle415]

I feel exactly the same way. The Tomasi that's writing Detective lately could learn a lot from the Tomasi that wrote Batman and Robin. I've been so disappointed in his recent run on 'Tec.

I like Tynion fine and I'd said he'd be an okay replacement because I dug his Detective/Bat-family stuff. (Priest was my top choice.) But I've gotten the idea that Tynion is really there to apply a very recent "DC style" (the Snyder/Tynion style that Didio seems enamored of lately) to Batman as a sort of correction for King's great run. I liked Tynion's 'Tec so much better than the stuff he's done under Snyder's tutelage. I find Snyder to be a great idea man with very poor follow-through. The last 5-8 issues of Justice League have mostly been introducing one surprise group of characters after another but never actually doing anything with them. If Snyder's Batman is the model Tynion's meant to follow, I don't expect to stick with that run very long. I'm actually thinking of taking my first real break from DC (the only comics I read for the most part) since the 90s.

So much excitement awaits on December 18 with the finales of King's Batman, Doomsday Clock, Doom War and other stuff and so little excitement (seemingly at least) in the new year.

I totally agree, Snyder's New 52 Batman run in the beginning was amazing; but he then tried to one up himself in every arc and because of that felt so disjointed and unearned.

December 18th is so jam packed with finales:

Batman
King Thor
Invaders
Guardians of The Galaxy
Doomsday Clock

It's pretty nuts

[charliehustle415]

King's stories are all about the journey rather than getting to some big climax. The reason Alfred may be dead (I'm not quite convinced just yet, even so) is probably because DC wanted there to be an actual change as a result of the run. That way, it gives the reader a reason to keep going, theoretically, to see if things snap back to normal (which we know they will).

So the new run in Batman starting next year - to me it feels like a been there done that already. Just because I feel like that team has already had its say multiple times. It feels like a holding pattern until 5G happens.

What I am really intrigued about it Bat/Cat, like the rest of you. It seems like that is going to be our oasis in the middle of a bunch of really bland Batman stuff.

I agree, I wish 'Tec was the standard Batman tile and the "Batman" title was more experimental where writers can really tell a unique story

[charliehustle415]

I guess this issue was necessary but would have made sense if King was writing until issue 100; however, with only 2 more issues I question why couldn't we have had this compressed a bit.

City of Bane feels like the Suicide Squad movie where large chunks are missing, which makes sense because it is 15 issues shorter.

I think having a larger page count might have helped but it feels like only 3 things happened so far: Bane takes over, Alfred killed, and Batman beats Bane. But we never see how Bane takes over, nor do we get a satisfying Bane vs Batman fight; especially with reading todays issue I just question why is this story still so decompressed?

[millernumber1]

King has shown himself both in the past and fairly recently to be pretty candid regarding changes and decisions for his story, so regarding stuff like "Alfred was supposed to be a fakeout" and "Bat/Cat will be Elseworlds", I'd say just wait for him to respond with an answer, because you know at some point he will.

Just based on my own perspective, I feel like the former is possible to be true, just based on us knowing alot of the story did end up getting rewritten and it doesn't look as setup as it probably should've been. I also feel like Bat/Cat is gonna be "in continuity if we feel like it", just like Doomsday Clock's basically been, or really any of the other Bat books relative to each other. They'll be in their own bubble doing their own things, but if there's an element another writer wants to borrow from they will. Like say, if the Phantasm return is received very well, they may want to bring her in and start using her more and other books, thus emphasizing the books "canon-ness".

At this point, just easier to wait and see for more information.

That's a pretty good point. That's why I keep watching King's twitter.

I do wish we had some balance between what the X-Books are doing right now, where it feels very much like they are writing with the assumption that you are buying everything (which is so expensive, and even if you get them from the library, I am simply not interested in every book in either the X-Line or Batfamily line) and what Jamie Rich and his team are doing with the Bat-line, where it feels like nothing really connects to anything.

I feel exactly the same way. The Tomasi that's writing Detective lately could learn a lot from the Tomasi that wrote Batman and Robin. I've been so disappointed in his recent run on 'Tec.

I like Tynion fine and I'd said he'd be an okay replacement because I dug his Detective/Bat-family stuff. (Priest was my top choice.) But I've gotten the idea that Tynion is really there to apply a very recent "DC style" (the Snyder/Tynion style that Didio seems enamored of lately) to Batman as a sort of correction for King's great run. I liked Tynion's 'Tec so much better than the stuff he's done under Snyder's tutelage. I find Snyder to be a great idea man with very poor follow-through. The last 5-8 issues of Justice League have mostly been introducing one surprise group of characters after another but never actually doing anything with them. If Snyder's Batman is the model Tynion's meant to follow, I don't expect to stick with that run very long. I'm actually thinking of taking my first real break from DC (the only comics I read for the most part) since the 90s.

So much excitement awaits on December 18 with the finales of King's Batman, Doomsday Clock, Doom War and other stuff and so little excitement (seemingly at least) in the new year.

I have, I believe, written at length about my frustrations with the n52 Batman and Robin, but I think even with those frustrations, it's a vastly superior work to what is happening in Detective right now - what is happening in Detective seems very much like filler arc after filler arc, with no real overall trajectory for any of the central characters. Batman and Robin had the powerful throughline of Bruce and Damian's relationship which had three definite "endpoints" - the Pearl, Damian's death, and Damian's resurrection - which provided a powerful sense of forward momentum, even within the smaller arcs.

Priest was absolutely my top choice for Batman or Detective, too! I'm very disappointed that DC didn't give him anything at all post-Deathstroke. A real missed opportunity.

I really like Tynion - but as you say, Tynion seems to be kind of avoiding the Batfamily this time around - maybe we'll be wrong, and they'll have fun appearances throughout (there are some hints to that effect - Tynion saying he's writing Selina, etc), but so far, everything we know just feels incredibly generic.

King's stories are all about the journey rather than getting to some big climax. The reason Alfred may be dead (I'm not quite convinced just yet, even so) is probably because DC wanted there to be an actual change as a result of the run. That way, it gives the reader a reason to keep going, theoretically, to see if things snap back to normal (which we know they will).

So the new run in Batman starting next year - to me it feels like a been there done that already. Just because I feel like that team has already had its say multiple times. It feels like a holding pattern until 5G happens.

What I am really intrigued about it Bat/Cat, like the rest of you. It seems like that is going to be our oasis in the middle of a bunch of really bland Batman stuff.

I'm not sure I agree that King doesn't go for the big climax. Omega Men had quite a few big climaxes, and Vision's ending felt pretty powerful, even though it wasn't necessarily world-shattering in event, it was emotionally.

I really hope I'm wrong about what we see in January. I would really LIKE to enjoy what is going on in the Batfamily. But so far...it's just not.

I guess this issue was necessary but would have made sense if King was writing until issue 100; however, with only 2 more issues I question why couldn't we have had this compressed a bit.

City of Bane feels like the Suicide Squad movie where large chunks are missing, which makes sense because it is 15 issues shorter.

I think having a larger page count might have helped but it feels like only 3 things happened so far: Bane takes over, Alfred killed, and Batman beats Bane. But we never see how Bane takes over, nor do we get a satisfying Bane vs Batman fight; especially with reading todays issue I just question why is this story still so decompressed?

I actually think that if Alfred being dead is the endgame of this run, a whole issue is pretty necessary. And I quite liked the way he did it. It's extremely "King" with the quotations framing the action for the bulk of the issue, but the way King ties Alfred's small part across these 80-odd issues together was really good - and he seems to be supporting Mazzucchelli's thesis that Catwoman represents a maturity that Batman and Robin are often not written with.

I do kind of wish we had some tie-in issues showing "life in the City of Bane" from other character's perspectives. The whole status quo feels very ephemeral otherwise.

[charliehustle415]

I do kind of wish we had some tie-in issues showing "life in the City of Bane" from other character's perspectives. The whole status quo feels very ephemeral otherwise.

This would fix everything for me; if they had a mini to fill in some missing pieces would have been great.

If Dick wasn't taken off the board it would have been cool to have the Nightwing & Robin ride again and try to infiltrate Gotham

[bob.schoonover]

I didn't hate this issue by any means, but it's definitely, for me, the issue which most exemplifies the seams in whatever the heck happened to King's run (moving to Bat/Cat, Tony Daniels needing lead time to draw . . . parts of three issues). Bruce said he sent Damian in because Alfred wasn't there to be a hostage, then Alfred stayed to be the hostage, too? Bruce and Thomas have recovered from the beatings in issue 81 and 82 already. Gotham Girl has been neutralized, but the JLA doesn't know?

Alfred's message to Bruce was lovely, and it tied into the opening arc in a way I didn't see coming. Given that everyone else is under Psycho Pirate's thrall, we'll get the Thomas/Bruce re-match we've all been expecting, and hopefully some answers about his existence (however, given that GG was supposed to have been cured by Pirate during I Am Bane, it'll be interesting to see how the bat-family all becomes un-thralled).

[bob.schoonover]

This would fix everything for me; if they had a mini to fill in some missing pieces would have been great.

If Dick wasn't taken off the board it would have been cool to have the Nightwing & Robin ride again and try to infiltrate Gotham

Sorry to double post, but it sure seems like there was a time when we were going to get that mini (or specials or something to fill in the pieces):
https://smile.amazon.com/Batman-City...4281530&sr=8-2

[gregpersons]

I reread Morrison's "Batman & Robin Must Die!" the other night and noticed some parallels with King's run.

—In both, a false Thomas Wayne is the uber-villain, always three steps ahead of Bruce who anticipates his every move.

—In both, Thomas's sidekick is a portly psychopath — in King's run it's The Ventriloquist, in Morrison's it's Professor Pyg.

—In both, Dick Grayson gets shot in the head!

[charliehustle415]

Sorry to double post, but it sure seems like there was a time when we were going to get that mini (or specials or something to fill in the pieces):
https://smile.amazon.com/Batman-City...4281530&sr=8-2

That is infuriating, why couldn’t DC let him finish his run proper

[bob.schoonover]

I reread Morrison's "Batman & Robin Must Die!" the other night and noticed some parallels with King's run.

—In both, a false Thomas Wayne is the uber-villain, always three steps ahead of Bruce who anticipates his every move.

—In both, Thomas's sidekick is a portly psychopath — in King's run it's The Ventriloquist, in Morrison's it's Professor Pyg.

—In both, Dick Grayson gets shot in the head!

I see where you're going with this - if Dick hadn't been "killed" during Forever Evil, Snyder would have had his Thomas Wayne shoot Dick in the head, too (it's true that Crimemaster doesn't fit the portly part, but the rest holds).

That is infuriating, why couldn’t DC let him finish his run proper

I would bet this was supposed to be a Seeley (or other writer) mini like the Wedding Prelude, although I could also see it being specials like Endgame had during Snyder's run.

This kind of reminds me of Goblin Nation as the capper to Superior (which I generally liked) - a lot of stuff happened off page, the story seemed poorly paced, once it was time to dispatch the villain, it was over too quickly, etc.

[Katana500]

That is infuriating, why couldn’t DC let him finish his run proper

I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!


On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!

[yellow cyclone]

That is infuriating, why couldn’t DC let him finish his run proper

because his sales were killing the title

[bob.schoonover]

because his sales were killing the title

Facts in evidence?

[charliehustle415]

I would bet this was supposed to be a Seeley (or other writer) mini like the Wedding Prelude, although I could also see it being specials like Endgame had during Snyder's run.

This kind of reminds me of Goblin Nation as the capper to Superior (which I generally liked) - a lot of stuff happened off page, the story seemed poorly paced, once it was time to dispatch the villain, it was over too quickly, etc.

Totally, I wouldn’t have minded just one issue of each Bat-Fam title as a tie in.

At least with Superior Spidey Slott wasn’t going anywhere, he wrote Spidey for another 75ish issues