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  1. #1201
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    I enjoyed this a lot. The dialogue might seem stilted at first read but seems to breathe more at subsequent reading

    I got a kick out of King giving Selina a moniker the Lion equivalent to Bruce’s Knight. I thought their fireside chat where she opens up is one of the best Selina I’ve read.

    Still unanswered questions:
    1) how did Selina know where to find Bruce
    2) why did they go to Paris
    3) what did she mean at the end? You have no idea what you’re getting into

  2. #1202
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipsnopotatoes View Post
    I enjoyed this a lot. The dialogue might seem stilted at first read but seems to breathe more at subsequent reading

    I got a kick out of King giving Selina a moniker the Lion equivalent to Bruce’s Knight. I thought their fireside chat where she opens up is one of the best Selina I’ve read.

    Still unanswered questions:
    1) how did Selina know where to find Bruce
    2) why did they go to Paris
    3) what did she mean at the end? You have no idea what you’re getting into
    I wonder if King is referencing her Calabrese past in Batman Eternal/Valentine's run. Because I personally really loved that stuff.

    I would like to know how Selina found Bruce. Paris is probably just a place where Selina has resources and can steal and fence enough art relatively quickly to get supplies for Bruce. As for the last line...I'm pretty sure we'll get more on that in 79. NEXT WEEK! Woohoo!

    But yeah. I'm feeling sadly that it's less and less likely that we'll find out how Selina found Bruce.
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  3. #1203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    Enjoyed the callbacks in 78 to Annual #2 and I Am Suicide. Anyone else spot other callbacks?

    Other stray thoughts:

    -Interesting that Selina refers to Batman as Bruce here and there along with the usual Bat, but Bruce just refers to her as Cat.
    -Since this issue had the boat, will 79 feature the street?
    -If there is one criticism, this issue is something of an anticlimatic follow-up to the events of last issue. I suppose it is a microscopic version of the issue that Knightmares faced as the follow-up to The Tyrant's Wing's cliffhanger.

    Edit: King did tweet this in a response to a question over the ending of last issue.
    https://twitter.com/Clay_Mann_/statu...33489789423622 If 79 doesn't address feature it, then another issue of Batman or Bat/Cat will.

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The whole issue was just beautiful. I get that it's a diversion from the "main" plot, but as with Knightmares, it's asking the questions that I really, REALLY wanted answered. What is Bat and Cat now, post wedding? What did Bruce learn from his ordeal? And so far, we're getting very, very good answers. I just bought the Wedding Album, and not only does it show all of King and Janin's hard work to parallel their story artistically, but it also includes the lovely #44, which sets up so much of what King is doing with Batman here.
    The back half of King's run is full of issues like this - the individual issue is beautiful and has a specific point of view that's obviously part of the whole run, but they just KILL the momentum from the previous issue. Knightfall will be the classic example of this, but I think here, too, there's a certain lack of cohesion to the story that drags (this is different from, e.g. Final Crisis where the lack of cohesion was intentional). Which is really just another way of saying, if 78-79 were an annual that just happened to come out between the Alfred neck crack issue and the next actual City of Bane issue, I feel like there would be more "flow" to the story he's telling, even if it's only a cosmetic difference.

    It's just a weird pacing choice that confuses me and I'm kind of talking it out to myself here - the first 24 issues of King's run just burn - they're awesome and the pacing is perfect. The next 26 were fine - I thought the lead up to the wedding kind of rushed the whole "Bruce can't be happy and be Batman" thing a little too hard right at the end, but it was still really good. Since then, I've more or less liked each arc individually (the only down part was the post-Knightmares, pre-CoB stuff, and only some of that), but can't say I love the whole as much.
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  5. #1205
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    The back half of King's run is full of issues like this - the individual issue is beautiful and has a specific point of view that's obviously part of the whole run, but they just KILL the momentum from the previous issue. Knightfall will be the classic example of this, but I think here, too, there's a certain lack of cohesion to the story that drags (this is different from, e.g. Final Crisis where the lack of cohesion was intentional). Which is really just another way of saying, if 78-79 were an annual that just happened to come out between the Alfred neck crack issue and the next actual City of Bane issue, I feel like there would be more "flow" to the story he's telling, even if it's only a cosmetic difference.

    It's just a weird pacing choice that confuses me and I'm kind of talking it out to myself here - the first 24 issues of King's run just burn - they're awesome and the pacing is perfect. The next 26 were fine - I thought the lead up to the wedding kind of rushed the whole "Bruce can't be happy and be Batman" thing a little too hard right at the end, but it was still really good. Since then, I've more or less liked each arc individually (the only down part was the post-Knightmares, pre-CoB stuff, and only some of that), but can't say I love the whole as much.
    I think that in terms of the straightforward plot, you're right - the momentum is all over the place. But in terms of the the emotional plot, it's kind of working the same way, but in reverse. People have been asking since 75 (or before) what Bruce and Selina will say to each other. And as one of those people, I'm glad we're dealing with it now instead of trying to skim over it and pretend everything's fine now. Plus, it helps give Batman a sense of humanity that he's taking this time to recover after having his back broken and fighting his way out of the pit.

    It's interesting that you love the pacing of the first 24 issues - I actually really struggle with them, even though you're right that the plot is much faster and smoother there. The whole - that is the thematic exploration of who Batman is compared to Bane and in relationship with Catwoman - is what I care about the most, and I think that whole is enhanced through emotional currents that eddy and swirl.
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  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think that in terms of the straightforward plot, you're right - the momentum is all over the place. But in terms of the the emotional plot, it's kind of working the same way, but in reverse. People have been asking since 75 (or before) what Bruce and Selina will say to each other. And as one of those people, I'm glad we're dealing with it now instead of trying to skim over it and pretend everything's fine now. Plus, it helps give Batman a sense of humanity that he's taking this time to recover after having his back broken and fighting his way out of the pit.

    It's interesting that you love the pacing of the first 24 issues - I actually really struggle with them, even though you're right that the plot is much faster and smoother there. The whole - that is the thematic exploration of who Batman is compared to Bane and in relationship with Catwoman - is what I care about the most, and I think that whole is enhanced through emotional currents that eddy and swirl.
    I feel like the emotional and story plots were more aligned in the first quarter of the run (and I think it's a correct framing to discuss the emotional and plot arcs separately), and something like Rooftops, which really mattered, occurred in a logical break in the action of the story plot. Rooftops also worked so well because we knew Bruce was in a bad place and we had the letters back and forth in I Am Suicide to explicate where there relationship was. I guess what it comes down to is that when I read Rooftops, I wasn't thinking about Bane or Psycho Pirate or Gotham Girl. I was fine being in the moment w/Selina and Bruce because we were in a plot lull. I'm reading this interlude wondering about Damian and Alfred, and I think that's a pacing problem - I should note I'm not sure what the solution to it is*; had it come before the other CoB stuff, there would be no overriding motivation for Bruce to get better, if it came after, it'd all be in a rush as Bruce returns to Gotham. Again, I'm still loving most of the individual arcs, and maybe this will hang together better for me when CoB is over (War of Jokes and Riddles was like that for me - the interstitial Kite Man issues had a lot more power on the second read when I knew what was up).

    *I had suggested an annual before, but something like Knightquest: The Search or Return of Bruce Wayne that paralleled the main story might have worked, as well, and also created a collections nightmare.
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  7. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    The back half of King's run is full of issues like this - the individual issue is beautiful and has a specific point of view that's obviously part of the whole run, but they just KILL the momentum from the previous issue. Knightfall will be the classic example of this, but I think here, too, there's a certain lack of cohesion to the story that drags (this is different from, e.g. Final Crisis where the lack of cohesion was intentional). Which is really just another way of saying, if 78-79 were an annual that just happened to come out between the Alfred neck crack issue and the next actual City of Bane issue, I feel like there would be more "flow" to the story he's telling, even if it's only a cosmetic difference.

    It's just a weird pacing choice that confuses me and I'm kind of talking it out to myself here - the first 24 issues of King's run just burn - they're awesome and the pacing is perfect. The next 26 were fine - I thought the lead up to the wedding kind of rushed the whole "Bruce can't be happy and be Batman" thing a little too hard right at the end, but it was still really good. Since then, I've more or less liked each arc individually (the only down part was the post-Knightmares, pre-CoB stuff, and only some of that), but can't say I love the whole as much.
    Honestly, I think it would've been fine had he simply switched the content of issue 77 to come after issues 78/79 instead of before them (which would lead to the content of 78 & 79 being bumped up one).

  8. #1208
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    I feel like the emotional and story plots were more aligned in the first quarter of the run (and I think it's a correct framing to discuss the emotional and plot arcs separately), and something like Rooftops, which really mattered, occurred in a logical break in the action of the story plot. Rooftops also worked so well because we knew Bruce was in a bad place and we had the letters back and forth in I Am Suicide to explicate where there relationship was. I guess what it comes down to is that when I read Rooftops, I wasn't thinking about Bane or Psycho Pirate or Gotham Girl. I was fine being in the moment w/Selina and Bruce because we were in a plot lull. I'm reading this interlude wondering about Damian and Alfred, and I think that's a pacing problem - I should note I'm not sure what the solution to it is*; had it come before the other CoB stuff, there would be no overriding motivation for Bruce to get better, if it came after, it'd all be in a rush as Bruce returns to Gotham. Again, I'm still loving most of the individual arcs, and maybe this will hang together better for me when CoB is over (War of Jokes and Riddles was like that for me - the interstitial Kite Man issues had a lot more power on the second read when I knew what was up).

    *I had suggested an annual before, but something like Knightquest: The Search or Return of Bruce Wayne that paralleled the main story might have worked, as well, and also created a collections nightmare.
    Haha, nice note about Knightquest: The Search, which has only recently been recollected for fans.

    I was just pondering on twitter whether this could have been better if King had pitched and executed this as a series of 12-issue miniseries - starting with I Am Batman (compressing the I Am trilogy), then going on to The War of Jokes and Riddles (which was originally a 12-issue mini anyway), then Rules of Engagement, then The Wedding, then Knightmares, ending with City of Bane and Bat/Cat. DC would never have gone for it - they were really excited about their twice a month shipping plan - but I think it would have been better. And King could have overlapped some of them - War of Jokes and Riddles, at least, and maybe Knightmares. But I'm sure editing that would be so hard, and people wouldn't be as interested in collecting all the minis as they are the main Batman title. Ah, well.

    I totally see what you're saying about this being a break from the main plotline, and the frustration. I was so frustrated myself when we hit Knightmares after that horrifying cliffhanger in The Tyrant Wing - but after a weak first issue, I was thrilled with finally getting to see inside Batman's head for the first time since the wedding. I think the whole run will make a lot of sense when it's done - I'm very curious to see if it makes sense without Bat/Cat, or if Bat/Cat will be a necessary next chapter. But however any of it goes, I'm looking for the individual issue satisfaction - something I know King is trying to work into each issue, even though everything's also a part of the larger story.
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  9. #1209
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    That is a point I do have to agree on, which is that all of King's run really feels like it was made for trades, and the stories and issues work so much better reading them all in one go rather than every 2 weeks or so.

    For me I would probably say Vol. 2-4 (I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, The War Of Jokes And Riddles) are probably the best paced portion of the run. I've re-read those trades back-to-back so many times, they fly by so fast, incredibly fun and creative, and get really emotional when they need to. I Am Gotham is alright, it just feels alot slower and both the narrative and thematic substances don't feel as strong starting out.

    Vol. 5-7 (Rules Of Engagement, Bride Or Burgular, The Wedding) I liked because even though it was basically a bunch of short self-contained stories, it was working towards something which we hadn't really seen prior, which is what exactly a Batman/Catwoman working relationship would look like and what it means for everyone around them. I will agree with one of the above posters points that the "He can't be happy" felt a bit rushed by the end, but I do think that also may be partially on purpose, since I've read these stories and Rooftops as Bruce and Selina working so effortlessly together they don't even realize and that's something they need to rediscover (though I could easily be reading too much into that)

    While Vol. 8 and 10 (Cold Days, Knightmares) do work really well for what they're supposed to do, basically unravelling Bruce's psyche and showing how he's feeling and hurting, Vol. 9 and 11 (The Tyrant Wing and Fall And The Fallen) do feel more like just set ups for City Of Bane rather than an actual really important story that reveals any extra depth. And I do think having these two build up arcs sandwiched between a mostly separate thematic anthology, I can kind of get why the pacing annoyed people, especially bi-weekly and not all through trades.
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  10. #1210
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    Maybe it wasn't intentional on King's part, but he may be saying something profound and true with this issue - to develop a lasting relationship, you have to put others on hold. You can't focus on love without being a bit selfish. To really develop it, one has to remove themselves from family, friends and cares of the world. Its why people go on honeymoons, and often spend the first few years of marriage really focusing on each other.

    In earlier issues, Selena and Bruce didn't really have this kind of downtime, I don't think.

    There is a big tragic irony that this issue is juxtaposed with the death of Alfred and capture of Damian. While that is happening, this was happening with Bruce - he is away establishing his life with Selena. Will he regret his timing, or consider Selena and his relationship to be a worthwhile trade for Alfred's life. Will he disown Damian?

    In short I appreciated what this issue was doing. Even if it wasn't very "Batman"-y
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 09-12-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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  11. #1211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    You can't focus on love without being a bit selfish. To really develop it, one has to remove themselves from family, friends and cares of the world. Its why people go on honeymoons, and often spend the first few years of marriage really focusing on each other.
    What? No. That's absolutely not necessary.
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  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    What? No. That's absolutely not necessary.
    So you think there is no need for alone time with a person you love? Zero time whatsoever?
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  13. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    So you think there is no need for alone time with a person you love? Zero time whatsoever?
    Of course not. But that's not the same thing as "putting others on hold" or exclusively focusing on your spouse at the expense of everyone else in your life.

    Was that not what you meant to say?
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  14. #1214
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Excellent idea for a thread. I too would not be interested in a total appreciation thread, because there should be room for constructive criticism. I dropped the single issues so any in depth discussion for the issues not yet in trade I won't be able to participate in, but I will check this out from time to time, especially when the arcs in the first five trades are being discussed.
    I think there should be a place for people to talk about the book which isn't just a bunch of "King is a hack" "I hate this" "A new low for this book" etc.

  15. #1215
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Maybe it wasn't intentional on King's part, but he may be saying something profound and true with this issue - to develop a lasting relationship, you have to put others on hold. You can't focus on love without being a bit selfish. To really develop it, one has to remove themselves from family, friends and cares of the world. Its why people go on honeymoons, and often spend the first few years of marriage really focusing on each other.

    In earlier issues, Selena and Bruce didn't really have this kind of downtime, I don't think.

    There is a big tragic irony that this issue is juxtaposed with the death of Alfred and capture of Damian. While that is happening, this was happening with Bruce - he is away establishing his life with Selena. Will he regret his timing, or consider Selena and his relationship to be a worthwhile trade for Alfred's life. Will he disown Damian?

    In short I appreciated what this issue was doing. Even if it wasn't very "Batman"-y
    I think there's truth to this, though I might not phrase it the same way. Dick said something very similar in Batman #35 (the 800th issue). We know that Batman will still be Batman - but there is a difference, a sometimes more contracted focus. Not putting on hold, really, but a shift in priorities.

    I do hope that the predictions about Alfred not being dead (or be resurrected) are true, since I think giving Bruce the guilt (which isn't his, but since he's Bruce, he'd take it anyway) of Alfred's death in that way would be pretty frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAILIYA View Post
    I think there should be a place for people to talk about the book which isn't just a bunch of "King is a hack" "I hate this" "A new low for this book" etc.
    Well, hopefully we provide that for you here!
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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