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  1. #1756

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    One thing I thought of this morning, though... it doesn't make sense that Thomas would know about the events prior to "The Button" since he was still in the Flashpoint timeline... but in his speech to Bane (the one that takes place during 50, ends with "How can I help?") -- he knew EVERYTHING about I Am Gotham, I Am Suicide, I Am Bane, and War of Jokes and Riddles

    Oh well!
    Damn, I wonder if he knew simply by researching prior to Bane

  2. #1757
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Damn, I wonder if he knew simply by researching prior to Bane
    Possible. Maybe parallel versions of these events happened in the Flashpoint Universe, as well. But he also knows the secret behind War of Jokes and Riddles, that Joker/Riddler knew Bruce better than he knew himself... and that one is even tougher to explain away, since it was secret only Bruce/Joker/Riddler shared before he told Selina, plus Thomas's version of Joker was Martha and Thomas never had a "no kill" rule so it wouldn't have an identical equivalent in the alt timeline

    Maybe Riddler gave it to him
    Last edited by gregpersons; 12-04-2019 at 01:38 PM.

  3. #1758
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up:

    After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.

    He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.

    He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.
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  4. #1759
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    I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!

    Also, if what Thomas wanted was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?

  5. #1760
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up:

    After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.

    He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.

    He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.
    Nice layout. I'm curious if Thomas intended to be Batman of Gotham for the rest of his life in this universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!

    Also, if what Thomas wanted was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?
    I think Inversed makes the good point that Thomas doesn't want his son to be Batman - and he thought that Bruce wasn't going to quit.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  6. #1761
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    A theory was released in Bleeding Cool's website that puts into table the possibility that Thomas might be from an alternate timeline that is not exactly Flashpoint. I think such a big twist isn't likely to be found in a double sized issue that has to resolve other plots and pave the way for the next writer, besides I disagree with part of the "evidence". I only think the Penguin one matters (which seems to be just an error), since the Croc one can be a simple reference and a previous encounter Thomas and Selina had with him way before Thomas killed Killer Croc. Anyways, I thought it was interesting to leave it here

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...n-84-spoilers/
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

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  7. #1762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    When you piece everything together, this is how Thomas' journey/goals seem to line up:

    After Thomas meets Bruce in The Button and tells him to give up the mantle to be happy, he gets dumped into his universe by Reverse Flash so that he can "suffer" by watching his son do what he doesn't want him to do.

    He spends the next while watching him from the shadows, revealing to him that while Bruce is trying to be happy by marrying Selina, he has no intention of quitting being Batman. So then after seeing the Booster and Joker incidents, he realizes someone is messing with him, learns its Bane, and presumably this is when he starts to look into everything that's been going on lately between Bruce and Bane.

    He then shows up to Bane under the presumption to partner with him to break Bruce, with his real intentions ultimately being to force Bruce to give up being Batman while Thomas remains as Gotham's new Batman instead.
    So I'm of the notion that when he finds Joker bleeding out after the ... best man rejection ... Joker's strange cagey answers are actually because this is Clayface. This is the moment when Batman abducted Joker (leading to Dark Nights: Metal) and left Clayface in disguise to infiltrate whatever was going on in Gotham's underworld. Thomas doesn't know Joker because in his timeline, Martha was the Joker, so he doesn't have the same instincts Batman would have about Clayface pretending to be Joker. Nor any real understanding of their weird Holmes/Moriarty understanding of one another.

    Then again maybe he was aware of it and indeed Batman Gambit counting on it to get the one-up on Bane when the whole thing shook out. He needed Batman's mole to think that everyone bought the Joker ruse so Batman would be overconfident in his intelligence apparatus. But ignoring cross-Batman-gambits, I do think this is when Clayface is subbed out for Joker.
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  8. #1763
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    So I'm of the notion that when he finds Joker bleeding out after the ... best man rejection ... Joker's strange cagey answers are actually because this is Clayface. This is the moment when Batman abducted Joker (leading to Dark Nights: Metal) and left Clayface in disguise to infiltrate whatever was going on in Gotham's underworld. Thomas doesn't know Joker because in his timeline, Martha was the Joker, so he doesn't have the same instincts Batman would have about Clayface pretending to be Joker. Nor any real understanding of their weird Holmes/Moriarty understanding of one another.

    Then again maybe he was aware of it and indeed Batman Gambit counting on it to get the one-up on Bane when the whole thing shook out. He needed Batman's mole to think that everyone bought the Joker ruse so Batman would be overconfident in his intelligence apparatus. But ignoring cross-Batman-gambits, I do think this is when Clayface is subbed out for Joker.
    I think Batman became aware of the complot against him much later in the run, when Penguin told him, and that he wasn't sure how big it was until he saw Arkham empty and use his communication language through blow in poor Tim. Besides, with Thomas and in DC Nation #0, Joker used the same phrase to describe who contacted him ("a banana"), which Clayface couldn't have heard so it would be weird that he used the same term if he was playing Joker when Thomas arrived at the church. And Selina and Bruce didn't know that Bane was after their marriage, so I don't think a mole was infiltrated in Bane's team so soon in the story
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  9. #1764

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    I thought this was a really good issue, but I'm mad that the Bat/Cat book is being delayed so long, because this is going to feel so unfinished!

    Also, if what Thomas wanted was for Bruce to marry Selina, then why did he help Bane to split them up?
    He didn’t. Thomas only approached Bane on the day of the wedding.

    My first thought when reading this issue was that King was just repeating the formalistic style of the Grayson Futures End book - but in retrospect I think the structure added to the story’s impact. Working backwards highlights very well not only the guiding principle behind everything Thomas did, but it shows very clearly how his actions have turned him into the bad guy. He’s horrified when FP Martha kills Alfred - but eventually he does (or is party to) the exact same thing. He allies himself with the very monsters he was supposed to be fighting. And every step of the way it makes perfect sense to him - it’s only when you look back at the whole picture that you see how far off-course he’s gotten. Having those reveals appear in reverse order increases their impact.
    Cheers - CL

  10. #1765
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    Who would've thought living would be what breaks Thomas? What is that saying, "You either die a hero of live long enough to see yourself become the villain?" (I think its something like that.) He feels everything he has done since being dumped in this world is justified because as he told Bane "I know what is best for the boy." That's all he sees Bruce as, a rebellious child that didn't turn out the way he wanted him to. Bruce won't give up. He denied Thomas of the chance to bring back Martha and reunite the "family." I really don't know how one more issue is going to wrap this up, but can't wait to see it.

    I don't know what the plans are to do with Thomas once 85 wraps up, but I do hope he sticks around in some way or another. If we can have the Batman Who Laughs in this universe with no problems I don't see why not Flash Point Batman.

  11. #1766
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    Forgive me if I spoil anything but I wasnt sure how to post a reply with hidden text. Once again Tom King punks Batman as he stands there and lets an old man knock him on his butt with one punch. King is a hack and has no clue how to write Batman

  12. #1767
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Forgive me if I spoil anything but I wasnt sure how to post a reply with hidden text. Once again Tom King punks Batman as he stands there and lets an old man knock him on his butt with one punch. King is a hack and has no clue how to write Batman
    The problem is not that you're spoiling anything. It's that you didn't read the opening message of this thread. If you want to hate on King's run, there are threads every issue for that.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  13. #1768
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The problem is not that you're spoiling anything. It's that you didn't read the opening message of this thread. If you want to hate on King's run, there are threads every issue for that.
    This is a thread titled King Batman run:Analysis and Enjoyment thread so I followed the analysis part which is that King is a terrible writer of Batman and you know what judging by Batman sales most fans agree with me

  14. #1769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    This is a thread titled King Batman run:Analysis and Enjoyment thread so I followed the analysis part which is that King is a terrible writer of Batman and you know what judging by Batman sales most fans agree with me
    Read the first post.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  15. #1770
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Read the first post.
    You mean the part where you said this?

    "I don't intend this as a wholly appreciative thread, either"

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